Cold start - YES, Hot start - NO WAY - bugger me!
#1
06-17-2012, 10:01 AM
Cold start - YES, Hot start - NO WAY - bugger me!
Hi Gang,
I have been lurking here for a long time, learning about the pitfalls of the 6.0 but decided to buy one anyway.
Here's the poop. It's an early 2004 model, built Sept. 29th, 2003, the engine built August 2003. It's a 6 speed with 165,000 miles. Bone stock, no mods of any sort (that I can see). I am the third owner. I have most of the history back to new, and includes a loooonnnggggg list of fixes. I have all the history my local Ford dealer printed for me, which takes it up to 2008. The first year of it's life it was in the shop every month, everything from oil cooler, EGR cooler, right head changed, ICP changed, had an oil leak. etc. Seemed to settle out for a few years then when the 2nd owner bought it, at about 140,000 miles, the big trouble started. In a 4 year period he has had the HPOP changed 4 times. ICP and IPR a few times. It was done at Ford for the first time, (warrantee) then at a small local the shop the last 3 times. The reservoir screen was changed at some point in there as well. The last HPOP was just 1200 miles ago, last May 2011. All because of no start conditions, the last one in May reported was no hot start.
So, that's the quick review of it's life, step in owner 3, me, bought last week. Drove it home 500 KM and it ran fine. Drove it all week...great. Love it. Fixed all the little stuff like AC, cruise, loose mirrors etc. Love the truck! Heading home Friday, been driving most of the day stop/start in town, I notice it's taking a little longer crank to start. It's about 22C (75F) outside, nice day. By 4pm, it's taking 5 seconds to catch. Last stop, 10 seconds of crank, no start. Wait 10 seconds, try again...finally catches and I make it home. Well SHXT. Here we go. I tried after a couple of hours and nothing, cranking at 190 RPM, according to the PTO LCD on the floor. Next morning, it starts. Ran it for only 1 minute to circulate the new oil/filter I changed out while it was hot on Friday. (Oil change done after the failed starts, after I got home) Shut it off, won't restart, after only 1 minute of running. To me, that says oil system problem, oil being thinner. The truck has tons of power, otherwise runs fine, turbo seems quick and I hear the variable thing happening at idle. I ran into town (small town BC) yesterday to buy a good scanner. Best I could find was the Innova 3130, but get it connected and even though it does live data for 25 PID's, it doesn't do ANY of the one's we need, and it reported no codes. So I now have a ScanGaugeII on the way..should be here in a few days and I will be able to test ICP, IPR, FICM V's etc. and will report back here.
In the meantime, who else has had the cold start okay, hot start not? To me it seems to point to oil system. I don't want to start chasing FICM yet as when I started it for only a minute, there shouldn't have been enough heat to cause a FICM problem. I am going to pull the ICP plug, when I can find it, and see if it starts. How long is it safe to run with it disconnected? 10 seconds? 5 seconds?
Given the HPOP history, which to me is bizarre, I am looking towards that but really don't want to go there yet. Someone, over the years, I think, has missed something, that maybe a fresh new HPOP will fix, but leaves an underlying problem, leaking HPO system, like O-rings, dummy plugs, standpipes etc.
Your thoughts gentlemen?
Cheers
Paul
Oh, BTW, happy Father's day to all the other Dads out there. I am off to the local air show with my son for the day.
I have been lurking here for a long time, learning about the pitfalls of the 6.0 but decided to buy one anyway.
Here's the poop. It's an early 2004 model, built Sept. 29th, 2003, the engine built August 2003. It's a 6 speed with 165,000 miles. Bone stock, no mods of any sort (that I can see). I am the third owner. I have most of the history back to new, and includes a loooonnnggggg list of fixes. I have all the history my local Ford dealer printed for me, which takes it up to 2008. The first year of it's life it was in the shop every month, everything from oil cooler, EGR cooler, right head changed, ICP changed, had an oil leak. etc. Seemed to settle out for a few years then when the 2nd owner bought it, at about 140,000 miles, the big trouble started. In a 4 year period he has had the HPOP changed 4 times. ICP and IPR a few times. It was done at Ford for the first time, (warrantee) then at a small local the shop the last 3 times. The reservoir screen was changed at some point in there as well. The last HPOP was just 1200 miles ago, last May 2011. All because of no start conditions, the last one in May reported was no hot start.So, that's the quick review of it's life, step in owner 3, me, bought last week. Drove it home 500 KM and it ran fine. Drove it all week...great. Love it. Fixed all the little stuff like AC, cruise, loose mirrors etc. Love the truck! Heading home Friday, been driving most of the day stop/start in town, I notice it's taking a little longer crank to start. It's about 22C (75F) outside, nice day. By 4pm, it's taking 5 seconds to catch. Last stop, 10 seconds of crank, no start. Wait 10 seconds, try again...finally catches and I make it home. Well SHXT. Here we go. I tried after a couple of hours and nothing, cranking at 190 RPM, according to the PTO LCD on the floor. Next morning, it starts. Ran it for only 1 minute to circulate the new oil/filter I changed out while it was hot on Friday. (Oil change done after the failed starts, after I got home) Shut it off, won't restart, after only 1 minute of running. To me, that says oil system problem, oil being thinner. The truck has tons of power, otherwise runs fine, turbo seems quick and I hear the variable thing happening at idle. I ran into town (small town BC) yesterday to buy a good scanner. Best I could find was the Innova 3130, but get it connected and even though it does live data for 25 PID's, it doesn't do ANY of the one's we need, and it reported no codes. So I now have a ScanGaugeII on the way..should be here in a few days and I will be able to test ICP, IPR, FICM V's etc. and will report back here.
In the meantime, who else has had the cold start okay, hot start not? To me it seems to point to oil system. I don't want to start chasing FICM yet as when I started it for only a minute, there shouldn't have been enough heat to cause a FICM problem. I am going to pull the ICP plug, when I can find it
, and see if it starts. How long is it safe to run with it disconnected? 10 seconds? 5 seconds? Given the HPOP history, which to me is bizarre, I am looking towards that but really don't want to go there yet. Someone, over the years, I think, has missed something, that maybe a fresh new HPOP will fix, but leaves an underlying problem, leaking HPO system, like O-rings, dummy plugs, standpipes etc.
Your thoughts gentlemen?
Cheers
Paul
Oh, BTW, happy Father's day to all the other Dads out there. I am off to the local air show with my son for the day.
#2
06-17-2012, 12:51 PM
#3
06-17-2012, 12:52 PM
sorrey about the troubles
I cant beleive all the HPOP went out 4 times they might have changed it 4 times but they all was not Bad
Your ICP is under turbo in the Back by firewall ya its the Fun one
Lets start Here
Tell me about the OIL FILTER CAP OEM and are you 200% shure
It wont really surprise me if you have the wrong oil filter cap causing unfiltered oil into the system and causing HPO Problems and ALL those Clowns was changing the HPOP Out 4 times
I cant beleive all the HPOP went out 4 times they might have changed it 4 times but they all was not Bad
Your ICP is under turbo in the Back by firewall ya its the Fun one
Lets start Here
Tell me about the OIL FILTER CAP OEM and are you 200% shure
It wont really surprise me if you have the wrong oil filter cap causing unfiltered oil into the system and causing HPO Problems and ALL those Clowns was changing the HPOP Out 4 times
#4
06-17-2012, 05:23 PM
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: knox Tn
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Well first off welcome to FTE and it sounds like we have similar problems . I to have an 03 with hot no starts and have a HPOP ordered for it . Also my truck has a 160 k on it . But its hard to imagine 4 pumps though its got to be something else . Will be watching your thread , good luck .
#5
06-17-2012, 09:33 PM
Home from a wonderful day with my son. Thanks for the replies.
Here are a few pics of the oil filter cap, and what I think is the ICP. please confirm.
The cap was replaced in May 2010 with p/n 3C3Z6766CA, along with the 2nd to last HPOP.
Although it's not focused on the sensor, is this the ICP, circled in yellow.
Thanks guys. Sounds like there are a number of us right now with this problem. Look forward to getting this running AND reliable.
Cheers
Paul
Here are a few pics of the oil filter cap, and what I think is the ICP. please confirm.
The cap was replaced in May 2010 with p/n 3C3Z6766CA, along with the 2nd to last HPOP.
Although it's not focused on the sensor, is this the ICP, circled in yellow.
Thanks guys. Sounds like there are a number of us right now with this problem. Look forward to getting this running AND reliable.
Cheers
Paul
#6
06-17-2012, 09:52 PM
Ok your oil filter Cap is GOOD
But sounds like it was the wrong one at some point in 2010 and probably did contribute to some of the HPO problems at that time
the part you have circled in yellow is the IPR it needs pulled check the Screen
Here is a Good Pic of Both ICP and IPR with the BS out the way
Heres a Link to my Photo Album Bunch of pics I take during diffrent repairs and upgrades
Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums - BLADE35's Albums
But sounds like it was the wrong one at some point in 2010 and probably did contribute to some of the HPO problems at that time
the part you have circled in yellow is the IPR it needs pulled check the Screen
Here is a Good Pic of Both ICP and IPR with the BS out the way
Heres a Link to my Photo Album Bunch of pics I take during diffrent repairs and upgrades
Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums - BLADE35's Albums
#7
06-17-2012, 10:30 PM
You can try this Unplug wire from ICP and try to start if it starts when unplugged ICP sensor is BAD
When you get the ScanGaugeII that will show a Ton of stuff
The ICP Sensor takes a 1 1/16th inch socket if it turns up Bad I dont think it is Bad though
The IPR Valve takes a socket with a slot out of it like a oxygen sensor or some have used a Crows Foot type wrench
IPR SOCKET= 1 3/8 CROWS FOOT ANOTHER OPTION IS A 36MM SOCKET
Some just buy a Deep well socket and use a die grinder to cut the Slot
I havent tried to pull my IPR Valve out with turbo and everything else still Mounted to the engine. I mention this cuz some folks have had a hard time getting the socket on an 03 its tight and has the Intake manafold cross peice back there to deal with. This is why I suggest the crows Foot wrench. You may get a socket on the IPR Im not shure. Maybe someone that has been in this situation B4 can comment
Bismic suggested the Air Test and that may give some direction what way to go with the repair
HIGH PRESSURE OIL AIR FITTING SIZE FOR THE AIR LEAK TEST
M14x1.5 to a #4JIC fitting for 03 and early 04
A LINK TO BUY THEM HPO ADDAPTERS
http://www.amazon.com/OTC-6763-High-...=5336108633-20
When you get the ScanGaugeII that will show a Ton of stuff
The ICP Sensor takes a 1 1/16th inch socket if it turns up Bad I dont think it is Bad though
The IPR Valve takes a socket with a slot out of it like a oxygen sensor or some have used a Crows Foot type wrench
IPR SOCKET= 1 3/8 CROWS FOOT ANOTHER OPTION IS A 36MM SOCKET
Some just buy a Deep well socket and use a die grinder to cut the Slot
I havent tried to pull my IPR Valve out with turbo and everything else still Mounted to the engine. I mention this cuz some folks have had a hard time getting the socket on an 03 its tight and has the Intake manafold cross peice back there to deal with. This is why I suggest the crows Foot wrench. You may get a socket on the IPR Im not shure. Maybe someone that has been in this situation B4 can comment
Bismic suggested the Air Test and that may give some direction what way to go with the repair
HIGH PRESSURE OIL AIR FITTING SIZE FOR THE AIR LEAK TEST
M14x1.5 to a #4JIC fitting for 03 and early 04
A LINK TO BUY THEM HPO ADDAPTERS
http://www.amazon.com/OTC-6763-High-...=5336108633-20
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#8
06-17-2012, 11:06 PM
Thanks Benny, for all the good info. Thankfully, in our small town, we have a major International dealer, and the company I work for has an account and we get real good discounts. (I think) I stopped in on Friday and priced out the IPR and ICP. I think $280 and $188 respectively. The counter guy had a heck of a time finding the most current number. Took about 10 minutes on the computer but he found it and said.....MMM..... this isn't good, seems they have had 4 rev changes on the ICP in the last year or so, part # being up to suffix C95, original C91. He said they must be working on design issues and changes.
Anyway, appreciate all the help. I hope this helps all the other guys out there with this problem, watching this thread.
Wonder how hard it would be to fit a Cummins in there?
Cheers
Paul
I stopped in on Friday and priced out the IPR and ICP. I think $280 and $188 respectively. The counter guy had a heck of a time finding the most current number. Took about 10 minutes on the computer but he found it and said.....MMM..... this isn't good, seems they have had 4 rev changes on the ICP in the last year or so, part # being up to suffix C95, original C91. He said they must be working on design issues and changes. Anyway, appreciate all the help. I hope this helps all the other guys out there with this problem, watching this thread.
Wonder how hard it would be to fit a Cummins in there?
Cheers
Paul
#9
06-17-2012, 11:45 PM
Thanks Benny, for all the good info. Thankfully, in our small town, we have a major International dealer, and the company I work for has an account and we get real good discounts. (I think) I stopped in on Friday and priced out the IPR and ICP. I think $280 and $188 respectively. The counter guy had a heck of a time finding the most current number. Took about 10 minutes on the computer but he found it and said.....MMM..... this isn't good, seems they have had 4 rev changes on the ICP in the last year or so, part # being up to suffix C95, original C91. He said they must be working on design issues and changes.
I stopped in on Friday and priced out the IPR and ICP. I think $280 and $188 respectively. The counter guy had a heck of a time finding the most current number. Took about 10 minutes on the computer but he found it and said.....MMM..... this isn't good, seems they have had 4 rev changes on the ICP in the last year or so, part # being up to suffix C95, original C91. He said they must be working on design issues and changes.Best to check it out before buying these sensors Typicaly these ICP & IPR sensors DONT cause Hot No-Starts its fairly common and normally a HPO Leak not a sensor
I bought a ICP from international Last week for $$ 104.00 mine is diff part # than yours
First number is Ford 2ND number international
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 438pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=584><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 221pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 10788" width=295><COL style="WIDTH: 12pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 585" width=16><COL style="WIDTH: 110pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5376" width=147><COL style="WIDTH: 95pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4608" width=126><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 221pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl67 height=17 width=295 align=left>04 (post 9/23/03) 05 up ICP ($150)</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl68 width=16></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 110pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66 width=147>4C3Z-9F838-AA</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 95pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66 width=126>1845428C92</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl67 height=17 align=left>ICP pigtail</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0"></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl68>5C3Z-12224-A</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66>1850712C91</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 438pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=584><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 221pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 10788" width=295><COL style="WIDTH: 12pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 585" width=16><COL style="WIDTH: 110pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5376" width=147><COL style="WIDTH: 95pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4608" width=126><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 221pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66 height=17 width=295 align=left>IPR (03-04 1/4) Without Edge Filter</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl68 width=16></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 110pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl69 width=147 align=left>3C3Z-9C968-AA</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 95pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl67 width=126 align=left>1839437C95</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Better watch this first
TUG-O-WAR CUMMINS AND A 6.0L
Dodge Self-Immolates After Losing Tug-o-War to Ford .: Articles
#10
06-18-2012, 09:20 AM
Just a quick update before I go to work.
It started this AM, 11C outside, after about 5 seconds crank. Let it run only 10 seconds. Shut off, wait 5 seconds, then it restarted with only about 2 seconds crank. Let it run for 30 seconds. Repeat, and it restarted again, only a few seconds crank. Did this once more then finally let it run for 1 minute this time at 1200 RPM. Shut off, won't restart now. Total 5 starts, within 2 minutes. Last one failed. I need that Scangauge to go much further.
That's it for now.
Thanks
Paul
It started this AM, 11C outside, after about 5 seconds crank. Let it run only 10 seconds. Shut off, wait 5 seconds, then it restarted with only about 2 seconds crank. Let it run for 30 seconds. Repeat, and it restarted again, only a few seconds crank. Did this once more then finally let it run for 1 minute this time at 1200 RPM. Shut off, won't restart now. Total 5 starts, within 2 minutes. Last one failed. I need that Scangauge to go much further.
That's it for now.
Thanks
Paul
#11
06-18-2012, 10:57 AM
When you get your SGII, check the ICP. Sounds like you probably have a high pressure leak somewhere the leak test Bis recommended will help confirm. Just taking a guess but I'm leaning toward dummy plug issue since I didn't see any mention of these being replaced in the history and the mileage on the truck.
#12
06-18-2012, 07:17 PM
Join Date: Aug 2010
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#13
06-18-2012, 09:55 PM
Hi David, Frank,
Thanks guys for the info. That socket looks like a great idea. We don't have Pepboys here but similar big box auto parts stores. I will get one tomorrow and mod per your pics.
The SGII should be here tomorrow and that will start me down the path to recovery. I stopped in at the local Diesel injection shop today and found a disconcerting sight. They had both bays with 6.0L in them and one in the parking lot and one that was towed in while I was there.
The head mechanic spent about 20 minutes with me walking thru the one that has exactly the same symptoms as mine. He was pretty impressed that I was pretty much up to speed on the symptoms and systems in the 6.0L, and he said that I had a pretty good handle on what to look for. Thanks to you guys!! They had just removed the ICP and were attaching their flex hose to the ICP port. Applied 100 PSI shop pressure and then cycled the IPR on and off. There was a definite hiss coming from the oil fill tube, and probably about the same from the port on the drivers valve cover. There however, was no change in the sound when he turned on/off the IPR. MMMM?? I had about run out my welcome by this time, thanked them for their info and said "see ya tomorrow". They laughed and said stop in any time. I'll keep in touch with them as they may be able to help me too. It was good to see where the sensors are on a live vehicle. They let me crawl right up and look under the turbo.
I also stopped in the International dealer and priced some items. Asked for Injector O-Rings, stand tube O-Rings, (they still sell them separately), the whole stand tube ( there was a spring and a whole lot of stuff in the exploded view he gave me). I didn't bother with the branch tubes as the tranny needs to be pulled to get at them. Ahhh, just figured out the stand tube. That must be the check valve to keep the HPO in the oil tube rail that feeds the injectors. Got it!!
So, that's the update for now.
Thanks again guys, for all the help.
Cheers,
Paul
Thanks guys for the info. That socket looks like a great idea. We don't have Pepboys here but similar big box auto parts stores. I will get one tomorrow and mod per your pics.
The SGII should be here tomorrow and that will start me down the path to recovery. I stopped in at the local Diesel injection shop today and found a disconcerting sight. They had both bays with 6.0L in them and one in the parking lot and one that was towed in while I was there.
The head mechanic spent about 20 minutes with me walking thru the one that has exactly the same symptoms as mine. He was pretty impressed that I was pretty much up to speed on the symptoms and systems in the 6.0L, and he said that I had a pretty good handle on what to look for. Thanks to you guys!! They had just removed the ICP and were attaching their flex hose to the ICP port. Applied 100 PSI shop pressure and then cycled the IPR on and off. There was a definite hiss coming from the oil fill tube, and probably about the same from the port on the drivers valve cover. There however, was no change in the sound when he turned on/off the IPR. MMMM?? I had about run out my welcome by this time, thanked them for their info and said "see ya tomorrow". They laughed and said stop in any time. I'll keep in touch with them as they may be able to help me too. It was good to see where the sensors are on a live vehicle. They let me crawl right up and look under the turbo. I also stopped in the International dealer and priced some items. Asked for Injector O-Rings, stand tube O-Rings, (they still sell them separately), the whole stand tube ( there was a spring and a whole lot of stuff in the exploded view he gave me). I didn't bother with the branch tubes as the tranny needs to be pulled to get at them.
Ahhh, just figured out the stand tube. That must be the check valve to keep the HPO in the oil tube rail that feeds the injectors. Got it!!So, that's the update for now.
Thanks again guys, for all the help.
Cheers,
Paul
#15
06-18-2012, 10:35 PM
