OK, You've never stated the Texas could sink the Iowa, but you've also never stated that the Iowa could sink the Texas, all you say is the battle would end in a draw. Sorry, I don't agree.

Not only would the Iowa class sink the Texas by plunging fire with the Texas hopelessy out of range, but so would the USS: South Dakota/Washington, Alabama/North Carolina/Indiana/Massachusetts. OBB's: Colorado/Maryland/West Virginia.

Extant: Alabama (Mobile Bay), North Carolina (Wilmington NC), Massachusetts (Fall River MA).

 

Texas was a grand old lady to be certain, but Bismark and Tirpitz could have handed her a watery grave very quickly..........let alone the Iowa classes.

 

Didn't see the previous thread, all I have to go on is this one, and in this one you have stated:

Which is clearly inaccurate.

Don't see why, but okay.

Exactly what you've gotten so far.


There is no range in which Texas could "shred" an Iowa. It's unlikely that Texas could even sink an Iowa that isn't even fighting back before all her ammo is gone. As stated by a renowned expert on the Battleships board.

Except that it doesn't apply to Texas, as her guns were never modified to elevate above 15 degrees, and therefore can't produce the type of plunging fire or range to punch through Iowa's deck.

Right, she could travel FARTHER at a higher speed. And who cares about "most economical speed"? We're talking a fight between the two, right? That won't happen at 15 knots. Iowa can run down or out of fuel any BB ever built, and be at worst an even match for the best of them.

Sinking? Who cares about sinking? We don't know if Bismarck would eventually sunk...might have, might not have, but she was defeated. That's all that matters. You don't have to sink a ship to defeat it.
Iowa could definitely take on a Yamato and possibly beat it. Yamato packs a HUGE punch, but it's not like Iowa is throwing darts back at her.

Too bad Texas can't throw a shell that far, I guess.

Wait, I thought Texas was going to "shred" Iowa's deck armor at 36k yards, now you are aware that she actually couldn't shoot that far? And it's VERY debatable whether Texas' Mark 20 shells could or could not penetrate Iowa's side armor at that distance.

You read the link wrong, at the ranges listed, Iowa could penetrate TWICE the armor Texas has. So no, she would NOT have to move closer, and even if she did, she could still penetrate.

This is incorrect. Iowa had no alignment problems, no accuracy problems.
As I've stated before, Iowa and New Jersey chased the IJN DD Nowaki and obtained straddles at 35k yards. That's chasing in a straight line, not shooting at the broadside of the ship, and it's a small DD, using only the forward turrets, while running flat-out.

Well that ain't saying much, is it? That's a "tallest midget" contest.

So you have decided that the differently-treated newer armor isn't as good, based on never having worked with it before but "messing with enough steel"? Sorry, naval experts actually tested the stuff and decided it was better, so despite what you claim, Iowa's armor was NOT the same Class A as Texas had. Even if it was only a little better, that's still better.

Yeah, they only have world-renowned experts like Nathan Okun and Bill Jurens and Dick Landgraft and others that have written their articles and they get info from. No reason to believe what they have, especially if it doesn't agree with what you're saying, right?

Okay, so you and I get in a fight, you get in a couple of punches and I walk away with a black eye and totally able to fight someone else immediately, and you are dead. That's what would happen here. BB's are designed assuming they'll get hit in a slug-fest. A BB like Iowa that outclasses an older one like Texas in every way might take a few rounds....and that's okay, they are designed to take it. But Texas can't take what Iowa is sending back at her, that's the problem. I don't see why people think there's something wrong if a BB doesn't sail away without a scratch.

That's a little over ten full salvos, fyi. That's just over 5 minutes of shooting. Think about it....if you get hit almost ten times in 5-6 minutes by 2700lb AP shells, you are in TROUBLE. Especially if you can't take it, which Texas can't.

Need to check your math here. You're talking about ONE barrel. Iowa has 9 barrels.
Out of 100 shots, if they're full salvos, each gun has shot a fraction over 11 times. PLENTY of barrel life left, and even if Texas is only hit 2.5 times at long range, they are going to go through Texas like crap through a goose. You might even get a Hood-like explosion.

You may, but you're wrong. Ask the Nowaki, straddled at 35k yards.

Okay? What's your point? Iowa sunk her opponent, and needed new barrels? Bet any navy would take that trade-off, anytime.
Seems you're saying the Iowa is overrated because she couldn't sink a BB like the Texas without receiving so much as a scratch in return? That's just illogical.
Of COURSE Iowa would get hit in return. If your opponent is of any worth at all, they'll certainly make themselves known before going down....all that matters is, who's going down? In this case, it's Texas, ten times out of ten, and Iowa steams away ready to switch fire to the next ship in line, ten times out of ten.

 

US BATTLESHIPS: AN ILLUSTRATED DESIGN HISTORY / Norman Friedman / Naval Institute Press. First published December 1, 1985.

If you join the Naval Institute, you can buy their books at a discount.

 

Wow! A lot of information here!

 

I would say that this is all a bunch of opinions and what ifs so if Rusty is bound and determined to believe that Texas could fight to a draw then fine. For my money though if I had to be on one or the other I'd take my chances on the Iowa.

 

Just wait for my discussion on the F4U Corsair being able to take on an F4 Phantom. When the Phantom gets into the kill zone of the Corsairs .50 caliber guns the Phantom will be mince meat...

There is also the M4 Sherman with a 76mm low velocity gun taking on a M26 Pershing with the 90mm high velocity gun. The Pershing would only out range the Sherman by almost a 1000 yards but we had lots of Shermans and only a few Pershings...
Battle - Sherman v's Panther v's Pershing - YouTube

 

Since wars are fought with combined arms, ship vs. ship instead of "battle group vs. battle group" is pure nonsense, about even with posing a fight between Alien and Terminator.

"Behold my manly Bismarck full of manly testosterone and manly armor and manly firepower!"

Behold wrecked steering gear and a mobility kill by a few of these:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircr...wordfish_2.jpg

Park the Phantom on the ramp and boresight the Corsair on the center of the Phantom if you want to play that game.

You might want to use the cannon-equipped Corsair instead.

Wild Weasel Phantoms destroy ground radar supporting Corsairs. Phantoms loaded for ground attack are too fast for Corsairs to intercept and blow away Corsair bases. Weasel Phantoms of course can also carry bomb loads and don't have to use those only on radars. Phantoms have about a 20K feet ceiling advantage so don't need to descend to Corsair level except when landing at home station.

Phantoms establish CAP near/over Corsair bases. Corsairs rise to meet them, but can't be stealthy since the CAP Phantoms have radar. If Corsairs are already in the air, Phantoms establish a kill zone outside their range and commence to plink Corsairs, which must drop external tanks and take evasive action even if they aren't hit. Corsair cannot outrun Phantom to attack Phantom bases. Phantom era bases have HAS and Corsair would be hard put to destroy those while being killed by US Hawk SAMs. Corsair can't track ground radar and would have to stumble on it to kill it.

Phantoms don't go in gun range, score some AIM-9 kills then accelerate out of range and hit a tanker. Phantom cannon out-range Corsair .50 BMG so Phantoms can harass Corsairs and kill more of them.

Want more guns on an Phantom? Have some pods, and you can hang them on an E-model too for five cannon though that's a bit much. Cool pic though.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6...lasf4cphan.jpg

Weapons test pic shows Phantom with a full bomb load. One aircraft is enough to take out an airfield for some time. When the dozers and guys with shovels and the PSP come out, reapply as needed.

Corsair can't fight in all weathers effectively. They had night fighter variants but a blind pilot would have limited chance against radar-equipped Phantoms doing overwatch.

Corsairs RTB then get cluster-bombed and Mark 84ed out of existence, assuming some Phantoms aren't already after their airfield. A couple of runway hits to slow the Corsair combat turn and you'd catch more on the ground. Even if they play "hide the fuel trucks" successfully that still slows them down.

Phantoms continue to blow away the Corsair base at night, maintain CAP to ensure no runway repair or logistics support. Phantoms carried (and carry, some are still in service though not with the US except as aerial targets) a greater variety of ordnance than anything since. That means cluster MINES, runway denial weapons, and laser-guided bombs. Up to 18 CBU-87s is a LOT of cluster munitions.

Runway repair crews come out to play and are exterminated. RF-4 Phantoms monitor the Corsair AO so there is no place to hide.

Alternate option:

Phantom loaded with nukes obliterates Corsair bases. Corsairs weren't nuke-capable, but Zulu Alert Phantoms were a staple of the Cold War.

Skyraider was, but that's not a player in this scenario.

Alternate option II:
Phantom wasn't set up to carry Genie, but could put airburst gravity nukes in the middle of Corsair formations and they'd have no time to react.

 

Did you think I was serious...

 

I figured out how to settle this

 

It didn't matter. I just like Phantoms.

 

Well, in that case, enjoy. The last F4S Phantom to trap aboard a carrier before the aircraft were retired.

 

USS Iowa will open to the general public as an interactive museum July 7, 2012. Port of Los Angeles (San Pedro) at Berth 87, located between the cruise ship terminal and the LA Maritime Museum.

 

You are mostly correct, but then again, the battle of Denmark Strait was a 2v2: Bismarck/Prinz Eugen vs. Hood/POW. Not exactly a battle group there. No other accompanying ships participated in that one.

Renown took on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau by herself. She had destroyers with her, but the seas were too rough and they did nothing, and couldn't keep up.

The Battle of the River Plate was 1 pocket BB vs. 3 cruisers. (2 light, one heavy)

The battle group is preferred, for sure, but it didn't always work out that way.

 

HMAS Sydney vs German auxillary cruiser Kormoran. Both sank.

USS Washington vs HIJMS Kirishima. Kirishima sank.

HMS Dorchester vs German auxillary cruiser Atlantis. Atlantis sank.