Hello from a total noobie, and I would just like to say that this thread is awesome. I'm planning on doing this same swap in my 78 F-150 and I've learned a ton just from reading through this. I do have one question though. What is preventing you from using a thicker spacer to put the 351M flywheel in the same position as the 460 flywheel would be? I thought I read somewhere that the difference between the two was closer to a half inch and you spaced in .3 inches back. If I may ask, what is the reason for this? Is it so the starter egages the flywheel teeth properly? If so, wouldn't using the stock 460 starter that the tranny was designed to mate to solve this? As I said, I'm very new to this, so feel free to correct any assumptions that I made that are wrong.

One more thing, Gary your work on that spacer is just awesome. THanks for taking the time to post and share what you have done so far.

 

Thanks for the praise. I do appreciate it. However, I'm learning about this myself and have been aided by many contributors of this thread, so it isn't just me by any stretch.

As for the spacer, I chose .300" as it was as far as I could go and get a 351W/auto tranny starter to fully engage the ring gear. And even then I'll have to move the ring gear forward .080" to make that happen, and that's as far forward as the ring gear can go.

But, you bring up a good point about the 460 starter - and, I might add, one I didn't think of. However, I don't have a 460 engine sitting around so I can figure out exactly how far further to the rear its flywheel sits compared to that of the M-block's flywheel. So, had I thought of going in that direction I would have had to have someone measure a 460's flywheel in relation to the rear of the block and hope the measurement was correct. Further, I don't have a 460 starter so would have had to purchase that instead of using the 351W/auto tranny starter that I have. And lastly, I would have had to measure the position of the 460 flywheel's ring gear with respect to that of the M-block flywheel's ring gear as the 460's sits further forward on the flywheel than that of the M-block. In other words, the thickness of the spacer is determined by the location of the ring gear and not the faces of the flywheel.

Further, I didn't think of using the 460 flywheel by having it rebalanced to match the M-block's flywheel, as Wyoming4x4 did. And, while that would require a different spacer than the one I made, as well as re-drilling the 460 flywheel to accommodate the M-block's crank pattern, it would have been within the capability of the tools I have.

In other words, there are several workable approaches to the ZF5/M-block problem. And, I'm chagrined to say, I think the one you just proposed is the cleanest of all of them as the ring gear wouldn't have to be moved on the flywheel. So, what I'm thinking is we need to have a how-to on doing this swap, and have all three approaches set out. I'll be happy to write it up, but want to give credit to you and Wyoming. And, I can include pictures, like those I've taken as well as those Wyoming has taken, as well as CAD drawings. In fact, if I knew the necessary measurements from a 460 I could draw up your approach and include it.

What do you guys think?

 

I think you'll be making a new spacer.

 

Those write ups would be a good idea (but since I'm not even thinking straight right now... I can be wrong). But, what would be come of your current spacer & flywheel work ?

 

I thought we started out with an eight page micro-analysis of the situation.
Now we are at 21 pages and still don't have a clutch in the truck.

 

Yeah... what is the deal !

 

Nope. Don't see any problem with the approach we all agreed 20 pages ago. Just because there is another good approach that saves one step, meaning that of moving the ring gear, I don't see a reason to start over.

The write-up would be a consolidation of what I've done from this thread as well as Wyoming4x4's work and braddw25's new idea. In other words, something a lot shorter than ....... 21 pages.

Yup. But we had fun along the way and learned a lot. And, isn't that what we are trying to do anyway?

 

Good point. I did learn a lot & had some fun in the process.

 

Gary,

If you could tell me exactly which measurements you need, I will try to get them for you. A good friend of mine owns a junkyard near here and I'm betting I could find a 460 engine and starter to take some measurements.

Bradd

 

I have a 460 flywheel, so I could take measurements from that but I don't know for sure that all 460 flywheels are created equal. So, here's what I think I need:

• The distance from the bell housing mating surface of the block to the rear face of the crank. Not the protruding pilot on the crank, but where the flywheel mounts.
• The thickness of the flywheel at the mounting surface
• The distance of the front face of the flywheel from the mounting surface that goes on the crank.
• The thickness of the flywheel at the clutch mating surface
• How far the ring gear is rearward from the front face of the flywheel.

And, these measurements should be as accurate as is possible, meaning to the thousandth of an inch if you can. But, there isn't any hurry as I'd like to get mine done before tackling the write-up, and that's where I'd use this info. In fact, I might draw up the 460 flywheel and the needed spacer so someone can make one later.

 

Having both options in one writeup would be awesome. Or is there 3?

 

Don't you have a Parts Catalog?

BTW I just figured out today... All the decoding stuff at the start of A doesn't include stuff for cars.

One of these days I'll get the car catalog, but not today....

 

I think there are three:

• Mine, which uses an M-block flywheel with a .300" spacer and a 351W/auto tranny starter with the ring gear relocated
• Bradd's, using an M-block flywheel in the same position as the 460's flywheel, which requires a spacer with as-yet undetermined dimensions and a 460 starter
• Wyoming's, which uses a 460 flywheel rebalanced to work with an M-block and a spacer that I don't know the dimensions of - but he does

Good point. I do have a catalog, which would tell me how many Ford flywheels there are for a 460. So, if there is just one there is no need to measure another flywheel. I'll look in a few minutes when I finally get to go to the shop.

As for the decoding stuff, you are saying that cars don't follow the truck pattern? Seems odd since one of the characters in the code is a "T" that was supposed to say Truck.

 

The third symbol just designates what division the part was originally designed and engineered for.
Post 1979, external balance blocks were for trucks because you couldn't find a 460 in a car anymore.
But my '87 still still has D3VE heads.

The 460 was engineered for the Lincoln line (V) but plenty of those parts found themselves in Ford cars, Mercury's and Trucks too...

 

I moved the ring gear forward .109" today. I'd planned on only moving it .080" as that's all it looked like it could go and still have full contact with the flywheel. However, I discovered that the ring actually cuts away a bit as it approaches the flywheel, so it could go further forward than .080" and still have full engagement with the flywheel. See pic #1, below, which shows that I could have moved it forward even a bit further.

As for how I know I moved it .109", that's because I used a drill bit to measure the movement away from the shoulder, as shown in pic #2. The extra movement will ensure I have full engagement of the starter with the ring gear.

As for 460 flywheels, there are two in the 80-89 Master Parts Catalog - one for an 11" clutch and one for a 12" clutch. See the MPC page, below for #'s. But, the one I have is from a later engine and bears the # d9te-6380-bb. So, I guess I'd better not only have the dimensions from another flywheel but should also know which one it is - by #.

However, as the last two pictures show the ring gear on the 460 flywheel has the same # and shape of teeth as the M-block flywheel has. And, the two flywheels are the same diameter. So, it would seem that the 460 starter would work on the M-block flywheel if it was at the right distance from the engine/transmission mating flange.

But, there is a bit of confusion in the MPC about 460 starters. As the last two pic's show the catalog shows that a 460 in an E250 or 350 before 1/81 takes one starter, but an F or E250/350 from 1/81 takes a different starter - at least up through the end of that catalog in 89. So, was the 460 available in an F250/350 before 1/81 and was just not mentioned in the catalog? Or, was it just not available? Anyway, I'm thinking there should be some caution noted in a writeup about the 460 starter/M-block flywheel matchup. While it looks like the starter for a 460 in either an pickup or van between 2/81 and 12/89 will work, I don't know about the starters before or after that window.