No start and no Codes.
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Mountain Pass
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 206
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From: Central Ar
No start and no Codes.
Day began with a no start situation this morning. No codes. FICM Voltage good, IPR good, ICP Good. I did get a TBC Fault come up on the message center. I will start on the trouble shooting this afternoon but so far I have no clue. Any ideas would be helpfull. Its a 2006 F350 6.0 with 116,000 miles.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 27,881
Likes: 3,595
Dig into the troubleshooting process. The Tech Folder has a thread on it.
Since the 05-07 years have known issues with high pressure oil leaks (and this is one of the more common issues that can seemingly come-and-go), start by posting the ICP volts and IPR duty cycle. Also what were the FICM results? Sometimes the FICM voltage is an accurate indication and soemtimes not.
Edit - reworded, I guess I just didn't read post #1 closely enough.
Since the 05-07 years have known issues with high pressure oil leaks (and this is one of the more common issues that can seemingly come-and-go), start by posting the ICP volts and IPR duty cycle. Also what were the FICM results? Sometimes the FICM voltage is an accurate indication and soemtimes not.
Edit - reworded, I guess I just didn't read post #1 closely enough.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Hard Start, No Start, mild to warm weather, No Codes
Problem starting after hot run, in mild to hot days that goes away mysteriously.
This problem can be misdiagnosed as HPOP or FICM problem.
As a standard procedure, eliminate FICM issues first by doing voltage test (if possible).
However, if you are on road, and need to "get going" go directly to the diagnostics procedure below betting that your FICM is good.
Problem:
After a heat soak (hot run, A/C running), hot day, 6.0 becomes hard to start or will not start at all, but will mysteriously start after it has been sitting a while (e.g. overnight, or after a few hours).
This may occur even 10 hours after the "hot" run if the engine did not get a chance to cool down overnight.
Additional Clues:
Turning key on, hear fuel pump whirl but not the "thunk" sound (see below).
If you have a fuel pressure gauge, it may read proper pressure BUT it does not mean fuel is reaching engine.
Diagnostics:
Assuming fuel tank is full and there is no obvious problems like dirty fuel filters, or failed fuel pump, or other fuel supply / quality issues.
Assume that oil pressure gauge shows "life" after long crank, and there is not an obvious low or high pressure oil issue.
Diagnostics Procedure:
Turning key on with windows closed, should be able to hear fuel pump "whirrl".
If the whirrl sound like pump is running dry (a higher pitched whirrl), it is pumping air. The normal pumping sound is a lower pitched whirl.
If it is pumping air (high pitched whirl), disconnect fuel heater, also verify that large fuel filter is properly installed and there is no air being sucked into fuel pump, then continue diagnostics.
If there are signs of leaking fuel / seepage of diesel on large filter housing, there is probably a filter / air leak / misfit filter problem.
If it makes a sound like it is pumping, let it cycle to "max pressure" when it will halt after about 2 minutes.
If you hear no "thunk" at all --- chances are there is air / vapor in system, thus preventing the hydroshock causing "thunk" sound.
This is your clue that you have a vapor in fuel problem.
If it makes a mid-pitched "thunk", note the location it is coming from.
It will make a thunk closer to the firewall, or closer to the engine.
The former suggest air vapor before "little" fuel filter.
Check the little filter for air / vapor leak / misfitted / plugged filter.
If the thunk is coming closer to engine, you are in good shape as the vapor lock is coming from further down.
Let system pressurize fully (pump stop) before starting.
-----------------------------
Suspected cause:
Vapor lock in fuel system or an air / fuel leak.
Vapor lock can be in VFCM / HFCM (cause can be heater, or air leak, or bad filter).
Lock can be in little filter, lines, etc. can also be caused by air leak, etc. or bad filter.
OR, lock can be in portion between little filter and fuel to injectors.
Eliminate causes of air / vapor lock one by one
If equipped with fuel heater, unplug it to nail one obvious problem.
See previous message I wrote on this.
If it still happens, vapor lock is higher up the chain.
Systematically eliminate it.
---------------------------
Temporary fix (that will get you going):
If you do not hear a "thunk" or if pump sounds like it is pumping air / running dry, chances are you vapor locked.
The vapor in system provides a "soft" landing and hence no "thunk" when fuel system is pressurized.
Repeatedly do the Key On (until pump stops) until you hear firm and solid "thunks" deep inside middle of engine.
Listen for the thunk to move from side beside firewall, to middle of engine.
2 to 5 times repeated KO to fuel pump switch off (and thunk moving from firewall to closer to engine) is a good indication that vapor is out of system enough to start engine.
The thunk sound is a hydraulic shock wave.
When the pump fully pressurizes (and stop), try to start vehicle.
It should start then.
-----------------------
Alternate workaround: wait for engine to cool overnight.
Other suspected causes: fuel contain too much volatiles or additives that have too low vapor pressure / boiling point.
e.g. fuel cut with too much kerosene or winter diesel.
----------------------
Additional fixes being considered:
"Blue spring mod"
"Replace fuel filters"
"Replace fuel pump"
Install a fuel gauge at the test port with an auxiliary bleed return line to return fuel to tank --- and purge air out that way --- perhaps with an automatic valve.
Ideas welcome.
Note that fuel pressure gauge cannot tell the difference between whether the pressure is from vapor or from liquid fuel.
This problem can be misdiagnosed as HPOP or FICM problem.
As a standard procedure, eliminate FICM issues first by doing voltage test (if possible).
However, if you are on road, and need to "get going" go directly to the diagnostics procedure below betting that your FICM is good.
Problem:
After a heat soak (hot run, A/C running), hot day, 6.0 becomes hard to start or will not start at all, but will mysteriously start after it has been sitting a while (e.g. overnight, or after a few hours).
This may occur even 10 hours after the "hot" run if the engine did not get a chance to cool down overnight.
Additional Clues:
Turning key on, hear fuel pump whirl but not the "thunk" sound (see below).
If you have a fuel pressure gauge, it may read proper pressure BUT it does not mean fuel is reaching engine.
Diagnostics:
Assuming fuel tank is full and there is no obvious problems like dirty fuel filters, or failed fuel pump, or other fuel supply / quality issues.
Assume that oil pressure gauge shows "life" after long crank, and there is not an obvious low or high pressure oil issue.
Diagnostics Procedure:
Turning key on with windows closed, should be able to hear fuel pump "whirrl".
If the whirrl sound like pump is running dry (a higher pitched whirrl), it is pumping air. The normal pumping sound is a lower pitched whirl.
If it is pumping air (high pitched whirl), disconnect fuel heater, also verify that large fuel filter is properly installed and there is no air being sucked into fuel pump, then continue diagnostics.
If there are signs of leaking fuel / seepage of diesel on large filter housing, there is probably a filter / air leak / misfit filter problem.
If it makes a sound like it is pumping, let it cycle to "max pressure" when it will halt after about 2 minutes.
If you hear no "thunk" at all --- chances are there is air / vapor in system, thus preventing the hydroshock causing "thunk" sound.
This is your clue that you have a vapor in fuel problem.
If it makes a mid-pitched "thunk", note the location it is coming from.
It will make a thunk closer to the firewall, or closer to the engine.
The former suggest air vapor before "little" fuel filter.
Check the little filter for air / vapor leak / misfitted / plugged filter.
If the thunk is coming closer to engine, you are in good shape as the vapor lock is coming from further down.
Let system pressurize fully (pump stop) before starting.
-----------------------------
Suspected cause:
Vapor lock in fuel system or an air / fuel leak.
Vapor lock can be in VFCM / HFCM (cause can be heater, or air leak, or bad filter).
Lock can be in little filter, lines, etc. can also be caused by air leak, etc. or bad filter.
OR, lock can be in portion between little filter and fuel to injectors.
Eliminate causes of air / vapor lock one by one
If equipped with fuel heater, unplug it to nail one obvious problem.
See previous message I wrote on this.
If it still happens, vapor lock is higher up the chain.
Systematically eliminate it.
---------------------------
Temporary fix (that will get you going):
If you do not hear a "thunk" or if pump sounds like it is pumping air / running dry, chances are you vapor locked.
The vapor in system provides a "soft" landing and hence no "thunk" when fuel system is pressurized.
Repeatedly do the Key On (until pump stops) until you hear firm and solid "thunks" deep inside middle of engine.
Listen for the thunk to move from side beside firewall, to middle of engine.
2 to 5 times repeated KO to fuel pump switch off (and thunk moving from firewall to closer to engine) is a good indication that vapor is out of system enough to start engine.
The thunk sound is a hydraulic shock wave.
When the pump fully pressurizes (and stop), try to start vehicle.
It should start then.
-----------------------
Alternate workaround: wait for engine to cool overnight.
Other suspected causes: fuel contain too much volatiles or additives that have too low vapor pressure / boiling point.
e.g. fuel cut with too much kerosene or winter diesel.
----------------------
Additional fixes being considered:
"Blue spring mod"
"Replace fuel filters"
"Replace fuel pump"
Install a fuel gauge at the test port with an auxiliary bleed return line to return fuel to tank --- and purge air out that way --- perhaps with an automatic valve.
Ideas welcome.
Note that fuel pressure gauge cannot tell the difference between whether the pressure is from vapor or from liquid fuel.
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,956
Likes: 6
From: Abilene, Texas
Gearloose you must really have bad problems with fuel where you are at. It seems all your diags always come down to a fuel problem. What in his statement about "the truck didn't start this morning and now it does" leads you to beleave the problem is in the fuel system? I find that hard to beleave that is the problem. As far as the "thunk" your talking about, I don't think I have ever heard that in my truck. Maybe it's there and I just don't notice it, but with the injector buzz, and vacume pump and everything else that comes on when you start the truck I don't see how you would hear this.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
I can do an audio recording for you and let you hear it for yourself.
It may be unique to the Es, but I don't think so.
As for fuel, yes, seeing how fuel formulation has changed over the last 10 years, and the problems they (retroactively solved) it is a huge issue.
Notice that the badly clogged EGRs have pretty much gone away with the post 2009 fuel?
Very few people that have clogged EGRs replaced since 2009 had a repeat of the problem.
So it is not fuel post 2009 for that issue.
As for the issue of fuel quality, it might have something to do with me overdosing on SAE and SPE papers.
It is amusing how little people know about fuel / lubricant quality issues, especially with biodiesel.
It may be unique to the Es, but I don't think so.
As for fuel, yes, seeing how fuel formulation has changed over the last 10 years, and the problems they (retroactively solved) it is a huge issue.
Notice that the badly clogged EGRs have pretty much gone away with the post 2009 fuel?
Very few people that have clogged EGRs replaced since 2009 had a repeat of the problem.
So it is not fuel post 2009 for that issue.
As for the issue of fuel quality, it might have something to do with me overdosing on SAE and SPE papers.
It is amusing how little people know about fuel / lubricant quality issues, especially with biodiesel.
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