Its Biscuit and Bob again. I just introduced Bob in the exhaust department. Bob is a

1986 F-350
Crew Cab 4X4
460 conversion from 351W

Bob had a bout with not wanting to start when he was warm after running. Once he cooled down start right up. Overtime it got worse so I checked the electric system, it was fine but I got a 780 cold cranking battery. Bob was okay for awhile. Recently Bob stranded me, my boys, and the dogs on -10 degree day.

Changed out the starter and relay after the cables and terminals melted when the starter seized, then no problem with Bob.

Bob is now dead, no juice whatsoever! Any advice, hints, suggestions? Oh Bob started a week ago after sitting out in 0 to -20 degree weather for a week without being started.

P.S. Idaho wasn't this cold for this long.

 

Just because that battery is new doesn't mean it can't go bad in a short time (pun not intentional)

 

What is the best way to test the battery; should I just unhook it and take it to a parts store or is there a test I can perform?

Is there an general test to see if there is a short on the system somwhere?

Can I test the ignition switch without removing the steering wheel or column shrouds?

BISCUIT & BOB

Not everybody should be allowed to play with torches
Sense of Humor Required

 

Taking it to a parts store will get the battery tested under adverse conditions for free.
It will get a couple of Load tests.

I would start there to rule out the battery.
Then it will be one circuit at a time until we figure it out.

 

Took Bob's battery to the parts store needed replaced. Put the new one in and got nothing no radio no lights nothing. So I of course wi-battggled and jiggled the wires..nothing. Crawled up on top and checked around to be sure the wire connections were right...yep, although when I touched the block ground connection the radio came on. Tried the strater nothing and again no radio no ligts..retried the block ground still nothing. So brightly I tried the old jump the soleniod trick and got nothing. I am thinking dead short so I jumped the - battery terminal to the chasis and got everything and even started old Bob up. Removed the -batt/chassis jump and noticed it had arked a little, Bob continued running with the jumper removed. The lights were all bright but with a turn signal on the markers were dimly wavering as well as the headlights. Tuyrned Bob off and tried to restart him and got nothing no radio even.

I am thinking I have a short in the starter wire or a bad ground or shorted column ignition switch. The ignoition switch is tight when turning to start and doesn't spring back quickly, if you jiggle the key it will kill the engine. Just changed the starter and all the battery cables, changed the solenoid and the starter cable. Other than that haven't touched anything electrical.

What is the best way to check for a dead short" I unhooked the battery to avoid draining/damaging it. Just want to be sure before I change the ground and find out later that there is a major short elsewhere.

Thanks all

Biscuit

 

Here is the short circuit tech procedure.

http://www.inliners.org/tech/tech6.html

1) You need a helper to give you a hand.
Because when you are trouble-shooting an ignition switch,it gets tedious wiithout one.

2) Testlight or V.O.Meter(Multi-meter)

3) If you have other tech relate Q's ,feel free to click the link to my gallery and scroll down to the link's to things.

Once Steve83 shows up,both of us can get you through this.

 

Sounds to me like the ground cable is the problem.
Grounds do not "short", they are supposed to be a "short" or a direct path to ground Only positive wires "short".

 

If a battery is dead shorted, it will catch fire &/or explode within seconds. If you even TRIED to dead short it, it would throw a HUGE spark and vaporize the metal at the terminals, so forget that.

Your (-) battery wire/terminal is bad/dirty. The fact that jumping it to the frame powers everything up proves it. Everything stayed on when the engine was running because it was running off the alternator. Pull the WHOLE black (-) wire and replace it. It's only ~$12, but you have to a) get the frame terminal off the original and solder it onto the new one, OR b) buy a second eye-to-eye wire to run back from the starter bolt to the frame (always run the black wire from the battery (-) terminal straight to a starter bolt).

 

What about circuits with positive ground?

"Ground" simply means the most exposed terminal of a voltage source - it can be the positive OR the negative. Some circuits are insulated on both sides, so they have no "ground". Recent US cars are negatively grounded, meaning the whole frame, body, and most other exposed metal is electrically connected to the negative terminal of the battery and of the alternator.

"Short" means there's insufficient resistance between the 2 terminals of a voltage source, allowing too much current to flow. It has no meaning if applied to only one terminal.

All wire is considered to be a "short" from one component of a circuit to the next (except resistor wire), within the limitations of the wire's ability to carry current. A positive wire (or terminal) can only "short" to a negative wire (or terminal), so it's a reciprocal relationship. Both of them "short" - neither could "short" alone.

 

Wow that is a lot of "gobble-de-gook" making a simple question an engineers answer
In reference to the somewhat simple electrics of a battery positive and negative wire question...you have managed to add much confusion
I usually try to keep things simple as some people have a hard time grasping electrics

ps
I do not think there are many cases of positive grounding in these trucks anymore

 

Mil1ion and Steve83,

Thankyou for your attention on this matter. Just to clarify I am going to go over what I have done.

1. Changed Starter and + batt/Solenoid Cable, + Solenoid/Starter Cable, and - Batt/Engine Cable. This is different than what you are saying when I pulled the previous starter it had only the + cable running to it. Figured it was a Ford "thing" with the solenoid on the fender. The - batt cable went to a bolt on the intake manifold under the carb. I have not tracked a engine/frame cable yet. Will do so tomorrow in the day light.

2. When I changed the starter and the cables above it was because the previous starter seized and melted all of the above cables and the positve cable terminal connector. I replaced the terminal connector with a HD lead one it had a steel plate to hold the wire arc'd right through that and the wires to, that is when I changed all of the above.

3. Previous starter seized when the ignition switch stuck on start and starter armiture did not disengage.

4. Started and ran fine for a solid week, started up strong, noticed the switch was still tight and sticky and sensitive between run and off.

5. Parked the truck (2 weeks ago) until I had time to adress several inspection failing issues (couple days ago)

6. Went to start Bob and though I had radio and interior lights nothing from the starter. Began thinking there was a stuck switch or short draining the battery.

7. Yesterday jump started Bob and let him run for an hour or so to charge.

8. Pulled him in the garage and shut him down and he refused to start. Though he had juice for the radio until I tried to start him then nothing.

9. Today took the battery in (replaced under warranty) and this is were we are.


Sparky I wasn't thinking the ground was the dead short thinking that when I threw the key I was getting a dead short through another wire and that by jumping the - terminal to the chassis I was throwing enough override for the 780 cranking battery to push through because the starter turned slow and the jump was minorly welded to the chasis and - batt terminal.

Just don't want to fry all those wires and/or pull the new battery down thinking it is soley a bad ground connection. If that is all it is God Bless.

Mil1ion and Steve83 Should I just run the - batt lead to the starter and then from the same connection to the frame or is the above adequate. I am not even sure I saw an extra terminal on the starter when I installed it, could I use one of the mounting bolts?

Gonna be a couple of days to a week before I can get a buddy to help if at all. New to the area. Suggest a good voltmeter and anyother eletrical tools I'm gonna need for these tests, I have always avoided electrical stuff although I understand the basics.

If I need to change the ignition switch thinking about mounting a dash push button and leaving the key for locking the steering and providing Acc. & Run juice only, would that avoid installing a whole new column set?

Think this is long enough

Biscuit

 

I'll give it a try tomorrow

P.S. Sparky thanks to you as well. Appreciate the keep it simple spirit.

I tend to overthink things alot and try to reason it all out, really miss having my dad around to give me guidance "he'd have said clean the ground connection and go on down the road" He is still alive only 700 miles away. I am really concerned about that battery drain "Bob" is my daily vehicle and when it is -20 out you don't want to be stranded with your young kids. Have a loner for now but not forever.

 

I knew you had already changed the cables from your earlier reply.

Change the Battery Ground cable from going to the intake manifold to the engine block instead.

There is a spot just behind the alternator at the front of the block.

This is a MUST.

Since you also changed the starter solenoid,I'm now thinking ignition switch.


When you jumped the solenoid, did you go from + battery post to starter post on the solenoid ?
Or did you use a smaller jumper wire from Battery + Post to the
* S * terminal on the solenoid?

Are all the connections really clean?

 

Wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.

Tried the +Batt to Starter Side and when nothing tried the + Batt to the "S" nothing there either, but both times the radio wasn't happening either so I don't think either was a live situation. Soleniod is new everything sparkling. I know this but right now my mind just shut off, what is the "S" terminal for? I have nothing hooked up there at present. Have both my manuals here and still couldn't find the reference I just read yesterday. Must be getting tired.

Going for the - Batt to Engine block tomorrow. Just double checking here "Straight from the - Batt to the Engine Block" not "First to the Starter and then to the Engine Block"

Thanks again.

 

This is the terminal that allows a small amount of voltage by way of the ignition switch to go to the solenoid and cause the LARGE AMOUNT of current to travel to the starter side of the solenoid.

If there is no connector on there then it won't crank the starter.

Is the solenoid mounted correctly and the cables on the correct side ?

When the solenoid is mounted ,the S terminal should be pointing towards the left headlight.