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My truck runs good 95% of the time thanks to the first round of repairs that you guys helped me do in a previous thread earlier this year. I still think the I am a little low on power when towing heavy. The last time I towed it threw a code 1211 while going up a big hill in The mountains. I was watching torque pro closely when the check engine light came on. So here is the data I have. Starting at the bottom of the hill I was going about 75 and by the time I got to the top, about 1 mile later, i was doing 65 WOT. During that time I watched the IPR go from 40% TO 65% and the hpop pressure go from 2800 ish to 2000 ish psi. This was about 30 min into the trip and the oil temp was about 220*. The truck has a mild 40hp tune flashed on the computer from before I got it so I don't know the quality of it. What's your best guess. Would a better hpop like a cncfab fix this? is my hpop getting weak? Is it the ipr? Could it be an injector problem? The truck runs great most of the time even towing. This just happens when I am towing heavy in the mountains.
I'd say yes, you do need an HPOP upgrade. I experienced the same when at 19K GCWR going up Steven's Pass in WA. I had similar fuel and air upgrades to your rig.
My HPOP ran out, as evidenced by data collected from AE back in the day. I've lost that data since, but Tugly has it somewhere I think, helping me with the analysis. Even with stock injectors, having a tune to add fuel, and turbo upgrades to add air, the next weakest link was the HPOP.
I put on a T-500, but sold the truck before I could try out the improvement. I certainly wish I would have kept it now.
What is your total weight?
Tired injector o-rings could be letting some oil by. You could do the Cody test and check for that before you upgrade. I think the HPOP upgrade is a good investment with the fuel/air mods you have.
Thanks for the experience and insight BWST. Your line of thinking is basically the same as mine. As far as total weight it really is just an educated guess. I know the truck is about 9k with it being a cclb 4x4 and the stuff I have added. The camper is a 30 ft gulfstream ultralight with 2 slides. It says it weighs about 8k empty on its tag but I don't believe it compared to other loads I have hauled. I think it is closer to 10k. I really need to hit some scales. All that being said it probably all weighs about 19k loaded up. I really don't think it is the orings on the injectors since it is a 2003 with the better orings from the factory but they are getting pretty old. I need to check out that test procedure you are talking about. If I did just decide to get a better hpop for starters, which pumps should I look at?. Cnc stage 1 or 2, OR an adrenaline? I guess it would be a good idea to replace the ipr at that time as well with a factory Ford part? I am thinking down the road I might want slightly bigger injectors like 180s so a pump upgrade makes since but I just don't want to make the truck unreliable. I feel like I am jumping in the deep end at this point.
Funny I should be mentioned in this one, along with the data. The data BWST mentioned showed conclusively the tune was "hot", which led to the dip in ICP and the rise in IPR and EGTs. Here's a graph of the data from his run up a steep grade while towing heavy - and cycling the throttle to manage EGTs (with a 40 HP tow tune).
Low ICP = high EGTs when the foot is deep in the throttle. I had the same problem and I was advised to get a better HPOP - by the tuner. I put in a T500 and that cut the problem in half - not fixed, but raised the ICP and lowered the IPR/EGTs to where there was an obvious improvement. To truly fix the problem, I had to change tuners. Given my experience, plus watching others go through the same gyrations - I first suggest a Cody test. I realize you still have faith in 17-year-old O-rings, but O-rings are a leading cause of ICP loss - where HPOPs aren't. After that, I'd get it back to stock tuning before spending money on parts.
Funny I should be mentioned in this one, along with the data. The data BWST mentioned showed conclusively the tune was "hot", which led to the dip in ICP and the rise in IPR and EGTs. Here's a graph of the data from his run up a steep grade while towing heavy - and cycling the throttle to manage EGTs (with a 40 HP tow tune).
Low ICP = high EGTs when the foot is deep in the throttle. I had the same problem and I was advised to get a better HPOP - by the tuner. I put in a T500 and that cut the problem in half - not fixed, but raised the ICP and lowered the IPR/EGTs to where there was an obvious improvement. To truly fix the problem, I had to change tuners. Given my experience, plus watching others go through the same gyrations - I first suggest a Cody test. I realize you still have faith in 17-year-old O-rings, but O-rings are a leading cause of ICP loss - where HPOPs aren't. After that, I'd get it back to stock tuning before spending money on parts.
This is good information, why spend big $$$ on an HPOP when a tuning tweak is what you need. I am far from the pro that Tugly and others are here but based on what I've picked up here I wouldn't get near a FIPW of 4 ms.
Thanks for digging up this data, Rich. I agree with you on getting the truck 100% first. The Cody test is a good next step here.
Is it possible to have a PW under 3ms with stock injectors and get the most from them? I was thinking with the stock nozzles, the only way to get the fuel in fast, assuming start of injection is immediate, would be a strong HPOP to keep ICP up there. Maybe 140V IDM to improve SOI. Then add air (better turbo that is efficient at towing RPM) or continue to lift foot to control EGTs.
@rs51085 if you are not familiar with the term "Cody Test", it is a test of the high pressure oil system. I have detailed some of the parts needed and touched on the description of the procedure in the post below. In addition to the injector o-ring test, you could test the HPOP as well if your o-rings don't show any signs of failure.
@rs51085 can you do a WOT run and monitor your FIPW? It would be interested to see if it exceeds 3 ms with the mild tune in your PCM.
I was reading up on the max pulse width a stock AD 140/0 injector can support before it is drained. At 3000 psi of ICP, that injector is drained in 3.5 ms.
My tune was pushing 4 ms and should have been dialed back to under 3.5 ms, it sounds like, assuming full ICP was available. Seems my ICP would have still been low. On the graph, ICP is about 2500 psi when PW is at 3.5 ms.
Sounds like there is a little more data left out there that i could collect that would be useful from all your suggestions. I need to look into the cody test and see if it is more work than just replacing the pump. And I also need to figure out if I can monitor my injector pulse width with torque pro. I have always wondered about the quality of the tune since it is so old. It is very possible that when it was tuned, about 2010, the guy didn't know all the tricks they know now... would it be best for me to get the truck reflashed with a stock tune? If so I am not sure about who to get to do it... I guess pretty much everyone just gets a piggyback chip now?
Ok just got done looking at the cody test info you linked to sous. Looks easy enough. But I ran across a similar product that fits in the ipr valve hole and has a 1/4" npt thread on it so you can pressurize the system from there.
Would that work for me to check the orings? Seams like it would be easier to just pull the ipr than to get at the lines going to the heads. But I haven't done it so dont really know. Your thoughts?
There is more than one way to test the HPOP or the injector o-rings and I encourage you to pursue the method you feel is best. By going with the test equipment you are most comfortable with, you will likely arrive to a conclusive result sooner and with more confidence.
I created the parts list and quick description in an effort to build my own kit and summarize the tests being performed. Some people are not up on what a "Cody test" is and others have hard time using the search function.
Let us know how you accomplish the tests and what your results are!
Boy am I learning stuff thanks to you guys. I took a look at my torque pro app and it does read fipw. So I went for a drive. I just wanted to see how it was working without a trailer. At WOT from 0-70mph the injectors went from 2.6ms to about 3.4ms. Do you think that is enough info to say that the tune is bad? Now I am curious to hook the camper up and see how that changes fipw...
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I certainly wish I would have kept it now.
