Fully-Boxed Frame on SuperDuty: Your Opinions
#151
04-06-2014, 06:21 PM
A military vehicle has to work under much harder conditions as any civilian truck, if we speak about vehicles in combat. The G4 and G5-level of offroad abuse established for fighting vehicles in recent years cracked both a standart g-wagon AND unimog frame.
And a cracked frame under fire is much worse than a cracked frame at work.
As for the rust, again, MAn Kat 1 trucks are late 70's vehicles, some are almist 40 years old and many of them have been used long after their military service with the military maintenance. And of course we have salt here, loads of it.
And a cracked frame under fire is much worse than a cracked frame at work.
As for the rust, again, MAn Kat 1 trucks are late 70's vehicles, some are almist 40 years old and many of them have been used long after their military service with the military maintenance. And of course we have salt here, loads of it.
#152
04-06-2014, 06:26 PM
A military vehicle has to work under much harder conditions as any civilian truck, if we speak about vehicles in combat. The G4 and G5-level of offroad abuse established for fighting vehicles in recent years cracked both a standart g-wagon AND unimog frame.
And a cracked frame under fire is much worse than a cracked frame at work.
As for the rust, again, MAn Kat 1 trucks are late 70's vehicles, some are almist 40 years old and many of them have been used long after their military service with the military maintenance. And of course we have salt here, loads of it.
And a cracked frame under fire is much worse than a cracked frame at work.
As for the rust, again, MAn Kat 1 trucks are late 70's vehicles, some are almist 40 years old and many of them have been used long after their military service with the military maintenance. And of course we have salt here, loads of it.
Sent from my Telegraph using IB AutoGroup
#153
04-06-2014, 06:46 PM
The comparison to military vehicles is not a valid one for a couple reasons.
1. They will have an entire crew and service structure dedicated to maintaining them meticulously.
2. They have a finite service life planned in from the moment they enter service. Military vehicles don't get run into the ground. They're GONE long before they even start to have wear or lifespan issues.
1. They will have an entire crew and service structure dedicated to maintaining them meticulously.
2. They have a finite service life planned in from the moment they enter service. Military vehicles don't get run into the ground. They're GONE long before they even start to have wear or lifespan issues.
Not sure which military you're talking about, but that's certainly false for the U.S. Army. We still have some tactical vehicles that are older than I am, and the maintenance system is less than spectacular everywhere I've been.
#154
04-06-2014, 10:52 PM
Well my 05 F350 will run down a forestry road including corners at twice the road speed limit I don't know how much better than that it NEEDS to handle. When I load my truck camper, I just under gvw by 3-400lb I can take 20 mph corners at 35-40 without making my wife nervous and she's a major chicken. Once again how much better does it need to be. Btw my shocks are stock with 125000 on them. You want to spend a fecal matter ton of money fixing something that ain't broke? DUMB!
#155
04-07-2014, 03:53 AM
Of course a truck für 30.000$ is not supposed to be able to do all the stuff a military vehicle for 300.000$ can do.
Those are just examples to prove that it IS possible to design a not flexible frame able to withstand serious abuse and also rust for decades. And this is possible since at least the 70's so it is not some kind of modern high-tech magic. It's only about calculating a solid boxed frame, using quality steel and a proper coating.
If you flex a frame often enough hard it will break, just as any pice of metal you bend over to much, again, unlike special designs as the unimog frame those frames are not designed to flex really much really often. So a boxed frame can be sronger, and of course its more comfortable and safe on the road. It feels like people think this is always a double edged deal or something, you get more comfort, so you HAVE to pay for it somehow...
Those are just examples to prove that it IS possible to design a not flexible frame able to withstand serious abuse and also rust for decades. And this is possible since at least the 70's so it is not some kind of modern high-tech magic. It's only about calculating a solid boxed frame, using quality steel and a proper coating.
If you flex a frame often enough hard it will break, just as any pice of metal you bend over to much, again, unlike special designs as the unimog frame those frames are not designed to flex really much really often. So a boxed frame can be sronger, and of course its more comfortable and safe on the road. It feels like people think this is always a double edged deal or something, you get more comfort, so you HAVE to pay for it somehow...
#156
04-07-2014, 05:28 AM
Your first two lines and your last sum it up nicely. My 40000 truck does everything anyone with a spoonful of common sense would expect it to do. It will do it all fy every day for years. I don't want or need the equivalent of a baja race truck. Oh wait most of those can't haul any real eeight while running race conditions without breaking either. Check out what a ford raptor will do if you beat it a bit with a decent load in the box. Great handling great ride off/on road no payload and double the price of my truck. Anyone with that very rare commodity COMMON SENSE didn't buy a F350 to be the ultimate rock crawling max flexing trruck. You can make 1 from it but it will be barely recognizable and you'll be lucky if you only spend 300000. And once again have no real payload
#158
04-07-2014, 07:19 AM
Hotshot
The comment of "I don't care how my Super Duty handles" is utterly ridiculous. Sure, I know its not a sports car, but of course I prefer it to handle as well as it can!
Fullsize, unfortunately rust is a major problem for those of us who live in snowy areas where road salt gets thrown down by the ton. The Jeep Wrangler TJ ('97 to maybe '05) had a thin, small boxed frame. Adequate for itself, but these frames rusted right through over and over again. I think this vehicle alone really helped cement in people's minds that "boxed frame = rusted out."
It is true that Class VIII trucks (80,000 lbs rolling weight) do use C-channel frames, but you can hardly compare them to a light truck such as a super duty.
I think there are two primary considerations as to why Ford hasn't gone to a fully-boxed frame for the SD yet: cost, and possibly less upfit-friendly. As has been mentioned, the upfitters are already developing new mounting ways to accommodate GM, etc - so this shouldn't be a problem in the future. I don't think 'rust' considerations are even crossing the radar at Ford as a reason to stick with a mostly C-channel frame. I firmly believe rust will not be a problem on a newly-designed, full-box frame.
Fullsize, unfortunately rust is a major problem for those of us who live in snowy areas where road salt gets thrown down by the ton. The Jeep Wrangler TJ ('97 to maybe '05) had a thin, small boxed frame. Adequate for itself, but these frames rusted right through over and over again. I think this vehicle alone really helped cement in people's minds that "boxed frame = rusted out."
It is true that Class VIII trucks (80,000 lbs rolling weight) do use C-channel frames, but you can hardly compare them to a light truck such as a super duty.
I think there are two primary considerations as to why Ford hasn't gone to a fully-boxed frame for the SD yet: cost, and possibly less upfit-friendly. As has been mentioned, the upfitters are already developing new mounting ways to accommodate GM, etc - so this shouldn't be a problem in the future. I don't think 'rust' considerations are even crossing the radar at Ford as a reason to stick with a mostly C-channel frame. I firmly believe rust will not be a problem on a newly-designed, full-box frame.
#159
04-07-2014, 08:03 AM
#160
04-07-2014, 08:10 AM
Hotshot
#161
04-07-2014, 08:35 AM
Well those military vehicles are in the same weight area, the big haulers are not.
Of course there is always the price, but if you take the Mowag Duro for example:
Yes it's one ugly mother****er and yes it's older versions where equipped with way to small engines, but it handles very well offroad and onroad, has a gvw of 12.000lbs in the older version with a payload capacity of half the GVW and it's fully-boxed frames did not rust for over 20 years.
And in switzerland they do know snow i guess
Of course this Mowag military truck was more expensive as any F-350, but not as much as you may think AND you have to consider it was designed by an extremely small company and sadly only for military customers, so very little have been built compared to any fullsized puckup.
If built by one of the big three, the price would have been signfificantly less. This is why i would love to see ford go boxed, they did use some really impressive engines in the past (7.3 power stroke), they are way better accessable as dodge over here and they have the reputation to stick to solide axles.
We know the older Wranglers here, and yes they do rust in Germany as much as they do in the U.S., which is why you can get them very very cheap, but as mentioned aboe, very thin frame, pretty fragile vehicle. I thin the JK will do much better, i could not measure the frame, but from the outside, it looked much bigger than the older one.
(then again, not nearly as massive as the Land Rover D3, i bet if you get those measurements this will be even bigger than the g-waong in comarision)
Greetings
Of course there is always the price, but if you take the Mowag Duro for example:
Yes it's one ugly mother****er and yes it's older versions where equipped with way to small engines, but it handles very well offroad and onroad, has a gvw of 12.000lbs in the older version with a payload capacity of half the GVW and it's fully-boxed frames did not rust for over 20 years.
And in switzerland they do know snow i guess
Of course this Mowag military truck was more expensive as any F-350, but not as much as you may think AND you have to consider it was designed by an extremely small company and sadly only for military customers, so very little have been built compared to any fullsized puckup.
If built by one of the big three, the price would have been signfificantly less. This is why i would love to see ford go boxed, they did use some really impressive engines in the past (7.3 power stroke), they are way better accessable as dodge over here and they have the reputation to stick to solide axles.
We know the older Wranglers here, and yes they do rust in Germany as much as they do in the U.S., which is why you can get them very very cheap, but as mentioned aboe, very thin frame, pretty fragile vehicle. I thin the JK will do much better, i could not measure the frame, but from the outside, it looked much bigger than the older one.
(then again, not nearly as massive as the Land Rover D3, i bet if you get those measurements this will be even bigger than the g-waong in comarision)
Greetings
#162
04-07-2014, 09:26 AM
QUOTE The comment of "I don't care how my Super Duty handles" is utterly ridiculous. Sure, I know its not a sports car, but of course I prefer it to handle as well as it can!
WHY? My old TIB floaty 2000 f250 will take any curve at any posted speed limit with ease WHY does it need to handle better?
My tundra handled better than my f250 but when the time came to upgrade to a more towing ability that was not even a consideration.
WHY? My old TIB floaty 2000 f250 will take any curve at any posted speed limit with ease WHY does it need to handle better?
My tundra handled better than my f250 but when the time came to upgrade to a more towing ability that was not even a consideration.
#163
04-07-2014, 05:18 PM
Well those military vehicles are in the same weight area, the big haulers are not.
Of course there is always the price, but if you take the Mowag Duro for example:
Yes it's one ugly mother****er and yes it's older versions where equipped with way to small engines, but it handles very well offroad and onroad, has a gvw of 12.000lbs in the older version with a payload capacity of half the GVW and it's fully-boxed frames did not rust for over 20 years.
And in switzerland they do know snow i guess
Of course this Mowag military truck was more expensive as any F-350, but not as much as you may think AND you have to consider it was designed by an extremely small company and sadly only for military customers, so very little have been built compared to any fullsized puckup.
If built by one of the big three, the price would have been signfificantly less. This is why i would love to see ford go boxed, they did use some really impressive engines in the past (7.3 power stroke), they are way better accessable as dodge over here and they have the reputation to stick to solide axles.
We know the older Wranglers here, and yes they do rust in Germany as much as they do in the U.S., which is why you can get them very very cheap, but as mentioned aboe, very thin frame, pretty fragile vehicle. I thin the JK will do much better, i could not measure the frame, but from the outside, it looked much bigger than the older one.
(then again, not nearly as massive as the Land Rover D3, i bet if you get those measurements this will be even bigger than the g-waong in comarision)
Greetings
Of course there is always the price, but if you take the Mowag Duro for example:
Yes it's one ugly mother****er and yes it's older versions where equipped with way to small engines, but it handles very well offroad and onroad, has a gvw of 12.000lbs in the older version with a payload capacity of half the GVW and it's fully-boxed frames did not rust for over 20 years.
And in switzerland they do know snow i guess
Of course this Mowag military truck was more expensive as any F-350, but not as much as you may think AND you have to consider it was designed by an extremely small company and sadly only for military customers, so very little have been built compared to any fullsized puckup.
If built by one of the big three, the price would have been signfificantly less. This is why i would love to see ford go boxed, they did use some really impressive engines in the past (7.3 power stroke), they are way better accessable as dodge over here and they have the reputation to stick to solide axles.
We know the older Wranglers here, and yes they do rust in Germany as much as they do in the U.S., which is why you can get them very very cheap, but as mentioned aboe, very thin frame, pretty fragile vehicle. I thin the JK will do much better, i could not measure the frame, but from the outside, it looked much bigger than the older one.
(then again, not nearly as massive as the Land Rover D3, i bet if you get those measurements this will be even bigger than the g-waong in comarision)
Greetings
Comparing military vehicles to a Super Duty is silly.
#164
04-08-2014, 06:50 AM
#165
04-12-2014, 05:40 PM
Hotshot