Transmission problems
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,337
Likes: 165
From: Harpswell Maine
One more quick question, I only removed the transmission, I left the clutch assembly and bellhousing on the truck. I am assuming I can use the same clutch assembly and bellhousing for either 3 speeds, correct? I don't want to go home tonight all jazzed thinking I have a easy repair and then find out I need to swap out the other parts. I have them on my shelf but they're in my shop and the panel is at home so I can't compare right now.
Bob,
It has been about 30 years but I know that I did not change a bell housing since my 56 Nailhead had the adapter nailhead to flathead trans.
Bill
Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 21
From: Poway, Ca.
Uuuuuhhhhh, grind!
Ok, as I recall, the "bell housing" on yours is actually two pieces - a "Flywheel Housing" that bolts to the engine, then a "Clutch Cover" that bolts the transmission to the flywheel cover.
On the "Light Duty" transmission, I believe the Clutch Cover is cast into, and is an integral part of, the transmission case. On the "Heavy Duty" transmission, I think the "Clutch Cover" is a seperate piece that is bolted to the transmission case. If you have the seperate "Clutch Cover" for your "Heavy Duty" you are ok there.
Now here's the clicker. There were two clutch assemblies - standard and the 11" heavy duty.
The publications show that the 11" clutch was available as a option for the standard transmission. They also list the 11" with the Heavy Duty Transmission as a package option.
Because the Light Duty transmission could be used with either clutch, and the Heavy Duty could be used on the 11" as well (both transmissions fit the same on the 11" clutch) then the input shaft particulars on the two transmissions should be the same, and the Heavy Duty Transmission should also fit in the Standard Clutch as well.
It's conclusions based on circumstantial evidence. It's not distinctly written anywhere. So I'm not completely certain.
Ok, as I recall, the "bell housing" on yours is actually two pieces - a "Flywheel Housing" that bolts to the engine, then a "Clutch Cover" that bolts the transmission to the flywheel cover.
On the "Light Duty" transmission, I believe the Clutch Cover is cast into, and is an integral part of, the transmission case. On the "Heavy Duty" transmission, I think the "Clutch Cover" is a seperate piece that is bolted to the transmission case. If you have the seperate "Clutch Cover" for your "Heavy Duty" you are ok there.
Now here's the clicker. There were two clutch assemblies - standard and the 11" heavy duty.
The publications show that the 11" clutch was available as a option for the standard transmission. They also list the 11" with the Heavy Duty Transmission as a package option.
Because the Light Duty transmission could be used with either clutch, and the Heavy Duty could be used on the 11" as well (both transmissions fit the same on the 11" clutch) then the input shaft particulars on the two transmissions should be the same, and the Heavy Duty Transmission should also fit in the Standard Clutch as well.
It's conclusions based on circumstantial evidence. It's not distinctly written anywhere. So I'm not completely certain.
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
Likes: 3,126
From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
OK, I just went to pull the transmission off of the shelf and realized what I thought was a heavy 3 speed is actually a 4 speed, dang!
I got the transmission from a guy I bought a bunch of '48-50 F-1 parts from and just assumed it was a three speed, first the light duty then the heavy duty. I just assumed (there I go assuming again) that the heavy duty 3 speed had a one piece case like the light duty 3 speed. I hadn't looked very closely at the transmission and didn't notice it has the hogshead like the 4 speed transmission but it does. Dick just answered that question. I looked through my parts catalog, trying to verify that this unit is in fact a heavy duty 3 speed. I pulled the shift rod cover and there are 3 cylinders, not two like a 3 speed.
I guess it's back to the original 3 speed and see if I can install the parts from the parts tranny.
I got the transmission from a guy I bought a bunch of '48-50 F-1 parts from and just assumed it was a three speed, first the light duty then the heavy duty. I just assumed (there I go assuming again) that the heavy duty 3 speed had a one piece case like the light duty 3 speed. I hadn't looked very closely at the transmission and didn't notice it has the hogshead like the 4 speed transmission but it does. Dick just answered that question. I looked through my parts catalog, trying to verify that this unit is in fact a heavy duty 3 speed. I pulled the shift rod cover and there are 3 cylinders, not two like a 3 speed.
I guess it's back to the original 3 speed and see if I can install the parts from the parts tranny.
Lead Driver
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,776
Likes: 553
From: Kalispell, MT
I wondered when you were talking about straight cut gears - the HD 3 spd are spiral cut on 2 and 3.
The outside of the HD 3 case should have T87D cast into the case. And as pointed out has the back half of the bell housing bolted on like a modern trans.
The case is the same size as the 4 spd, but the 4 spd case has 59T-7006 iirc cast.
The outside of the HD 3 case should have T87D cast into the case. And as pointed out has the back half of the bell housing bolted on like a modern trans.
The case is the same size as the 4 spd, but the 4 spd case has 59T-7006 iirc cast.
Marmon-Herrington Man
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 444
From: Central Illinois
I've swapped emails with Bob today on this and have offered him this 3 speed if it will work for him. I have no use for it, just came with a spare 8BA. But I don't know squat about the three speeds and don't know whether this is a truck 3 speed or a car three speed. So rather than just email the pics to Bob, I'm posting them here to draw on the wisdom of the group. So, what do you all think? Stu
Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 21
From: Poway, Ca.
Well, at least you have a spare for the F2 should it ever go out.
I'm not real big on the slang terms for the trucks. But by "hogshead" do you mean the seperate "Clutch Cover?"
Stu, that's a 3 speed light duty for a truck AFAICT. It has the clutch cover cast on to the transmission (you should have motor mounts cast into the water pumps on the engine as well)
Here's a picture of a flathead with the Car light duty 3 speed and bell housing on it (note the transmission bolts to the one piece "bell housing" actually also called a "Flywheel Housing":
Edit Note: Never mind the question on the "Hogshead" being the Clutch Cover - I looked it up and the answer is "yes."
I'm not real big on the slang terms for the trucks. But by "hogshead" do you mean the seperate "Clutch Cover?"
Stu, that's a 3 speed light duty for a truck AFAICT. It has the clutch cover cast on to the transmission (you should have motor mounts cast into the water pumps on the engine as well)
Here's a picture of a flathead with the Car light duty 3 speed and bell housing on it (note the transmission bolts to the one piece "bell housing" actually also called a "Flywheel Housing":
Edit Note: Never mind the question on the "Hogshead" being the Clutch Cover - I looked it up and the answer is "yes."
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,493
Likes: 7
From: Erie, pa
The three speed that Stu has pictured above is what ford use from 1939 - 1950 in Light Duty Trucks and as far back as 1932 in cars (From 32-39 slight case differences) the internals are the same from 48 - 52 (evan though the 51/52 didn't have the cast bell)
The gears fron 39 to 47 work as a set as well as the Lincoln gears from 39-47.
1940 and newer cars used the trannys without the cast on half bell
Set up a relay from Stu's to You's
Check with :Ford Flathead Engines for gears and a rebuild kit (bearings,sycros,gaskets)
The gears fron 39 to 47 work as a set as well as the Lincoln gears from 39-47.
1940 and newer cars used the trannys without the cast on half bell
Set up a relay from Stu's to You's
Check with :Ford Flathead Engines for gears and a rebuild kit (bearings,sycros,gaskets)
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Marmon-Herrington Man
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 444
From: Central Illinois
The three speed that Stu has pictured above is what ford use from 1939 - 1950 in Light Duty Trucks and as far back as 1932 in cars (From 32-39 slight case differences) the internals are the same from 48 - 52 (evan though the 51/52 didn't have the cast bell)
The gears fron 39 to 47 work as a set as well as the Lincoln gears from 39-47.
1940 and newer cars used the trannys without the cast on half bell
Set up a relay from Stu's to You's
Check with :Ford Flathead Engines for gears and a rebuild kit (bearings,sycros,gaskets)
The gears fron 39 to 47 work as a set as well as the Lincoln gears from 39-47.
1940 and newer cars used the trannys without the cast on half bell
Set up a relay from Stu's to You's
Check with :Ford Flathead Engines for gears and a rebuild kit (bearings,sycros,gaskets)
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,294
Likes: 1,055
From: NM
What Dick listed is true, but incomplete. There was a change in the output shaft (7061) in mid-'51 (IIRC). The change is to the angle of the splines. Take a look at VanPelt's site, the gear that Bob has busted the teeth off (7100) with his mighty flatmotor, is the one affected. It appears from the photo that Bob's is the late-model ('51-on), so earlier tranny parts won't work (maybe as a set, but I doubt it). See parts list below. The -A parts are the later ones. I had to replace my 1st/Rev gear and it was only $50. ("only")
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
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From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
Man, the plot thickens. I haven't matched up the gears from the neighbor's tranny to the gears in the panel's tranny yet. As far as I know the panel tranny is a '50, at least that is what I was told by the guy I bought the chassis from. He also said he went through the transmission and it checked out but the damage could have happened in the last year that my youngest has been driving it. He drove it a lot last summer.
Stu, your tranny looks externally exactly like mine. If there was some way I could get down there in the next week I'd do it. Just too busy at work right now. I've always wanted to take a ride down there and check out your trucks.
Ross, did you get your gear from Van Pelts? I just checked their site and it looks like they have the gear, they have many listed ranging from $40-95. If the gear from the neighbor's tranny doesn't fit I'll have to order a new one.
Stu, your tranny looks externally exactly like mine. If there was some way I could get down there in the next week I'd do it. Just too busy at work right now. I've always wanted to take a ride down there and check out your trucks.
Ross, did you get your gear from Van Pelts? I just checked their site and it looks like they have the gear, they have many listed ranging from $40-95. If the gear from the neighbor's tranny doesn't fit I'll have to order a new one.
Marmon-Herrington Man
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 444
From: Central Illinois
Bob - My tranny looks like it'll be plan B if all else fails. That being the case, I'll pull it, box it to keep the crud contained, and load it in Rusty's van when we come to the Dell's. I'm assuming you just need the tranny itself. Right? Stu
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,294
Likes: 1,055
From: NM
Bob, I got some from VanP, but there were several guys on eBay who have new and used parts. Be wary of any that look like they've been sandblasted!!! That is not acceptable for hardened precision gears. I have some extra parts too if neither Stu nor other sources work out, including a complete very nice early model but it is closed drive side-shift, never been able to figure out what would have used that.
PS -- you can be sure if your 1st gear is missing teeth that they fell into the cluster and damaged it. Hate to be a party pooper but I'd check before you get too far into this one. Also check the thrust washers when you get it apart.
PS -- you can be sure if your 1st gear is missing teeth that they fell into the cluster and damaged it. Hate to be a party pooper but I'd check before you get too far into this one. Also check the thrust washers when you get it apart.
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
Likes: 3,126
From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
Thank Stu, one way or the other I'll be at the Dells this year, maybe only with the F-2.
Ross, thanks for the info. I was planning to tear into the tranny last night but got side tracked. I'll make sure it's nice and clean before I do anything to it. I just hope I don't find more damage, but am I going to be that lucky??
Ross, thanks for the info. I was planning to tear into the tranny last night but got side tracked. I'll make sure it's nice and clean before I do anything to it. I just hope I don't find more damage, but am I going to be that lucky??
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
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From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
Well, I have the tranny apart, somewhat. I took a large snap ring of the front, #7026, and one off the back, #7030, and nothing wants to budge. I have a three pound hammer sitting very close and I'll be using it in a few minutes if nothing moves. I have a rule whenever I work on something, I give whatever I am working on a chance to work the right way, then it comes out my way. I'll wait a few minutes to see if anyone posts some help or the hammer is going to help.
