PVC is dangerous
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 2
From: Northwest Fl
PVC is dangerous
Eric, I have never had a problem with soldered joints before so my intentions were to solder everything together this time. I always sand the joints inside and out, knocking off the glaze coating and use a paste flux. I had not heard or read of problems with soldered joints before, hope I don't run into problems doing it this way. Is it a strength issue, poor adhesion or vibration caused concern?
I did try cutting at various spots on the removed PVC pipe and found that if the blade begins the cut, then the blade slides on through. If it is hard to begin the cut, the pipe seems to slightly compress, then the pipe cracks into at that point. Granted the cutting blade could be sharper, but all things being equal, the results should have been the same throughout the lengths of pipe.
I suppose the oil in the line could have caused the pipe to ‘soften’ and cut easier since it did begin to ‘break’ as I moved further away from the compressor. (The pipe was sch. 40, the compressor had not been run in several days and the temp. was around 50 degrees).
I did try cutting at various spots on the removed PVC pipe and found that if the blade begins the cut, then the blade slides on through. If it is hard to begin the cut, the pipe seems to slightly compress, then the pipe cracks into at that point. Granted the cutting blade could be sharper, but all things being equal, the results should have been the same throughout the lengths of pipe.
I suppose the oil in the line could have caused the pipe to ‘soften’ and cut easier since it did begin to ‘break’ as I moved further away from the compressor. (The pipe was sch. 40, the compressor had not been run in several days and the temp. was around 50 degrees).
Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,613
Likes: 2
From: Gainesville, FL
PVC is dangerous
Hunt,
I have used copper for pneumatic conveyance and it has worked with no problems. We used standard 50/50 solder. Silver solder with "ACR" copper would be the best pick but less convenient.
Secondly, the warmer the temperature the less likely that you'll see fracturing in PVC. Too warm, and you'll see creep or plastic deformation without catastrophic failure.
An example of temperature range failures:
Take a plastic coat hanger and place it in the freezer for 1/2 an hour. Drop the hanger on the floor and watch it shatter. The major limiting factor for polymers (plastics) is their limited tepmperature operating range.
KingFisher
I have used copper for pneumatic conveyance and it has worked with no problems. We used standard 50/50 solder. Silver solder with "ACR" copper would be the best pick but less convenient.
Secondly, the warmer the temperature the less likely that you'll see fracturing in PVC. Too warm, and you'll see creep or plastic deformation without catastrophic failure.
An example of temperature range failures:
Take a plastic coat hanger and place it in the freezer for 1/2 an hour. Drop the hanger on the floor and watch it shatter. The major limiting factor for polymers (plastics) is their limited tepmperature operating range.
KingFisher
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
From: Waterbury, CT.
PVC is dangerous
I cant believe anyone would consider using PVC piping for compressed air. That just looking for an accident. It's only rated to what, 140psi. I install gas piping for a living, and would ONLY use black steel pipe for compressed air. I've seen guys use heavy wall copper pipe for air, which is safe enough if you braze the fittings, but stick with the steel. Most people won't use steel pipe b'cuz they have no way to thread it. If thats the case, then just let a plumber do it for you, it's not worth the money saved if an accident happens.
When we piped my garage, we ran about 70 feet of black pipe all over the place in order to keep the hoses off the floor, this included fittings outside the doors for any outside work. Now when you get bored, you can run a manifold around the perimeter of your garage for the cutting torches, this is done in 3/8 wall, 3/8 I.D. brass,(4000psi) so you can have the torches at a moments notice with out having a cart hanging around all the time. The tanks stay chained to the wall out of the way.
And if you say,'I dont really need torches', then your not really working on a ford truck.
When we piped my garage, we ran about 70 feet of black pipe all over the place in order to keep the hoses off the floor, this included fittings outside the doors for any outside work. Now when you get bored, you can run a manifold around the perimeter of your garage for the cutting torches, this is done in 3/8 wall, 3/8 I.D. brass,(4000psi) so you can have the torches at a moments notice with out having a cart hanging around all the time. The tanks stay chained to the wall out of the way.
And if you say,'I dont really need torches', then your not really working on a ford truck.
old and in the way
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 5,921
Likes: 1,052
From: Lovely Hueytown Alabama
PVC is dangerous
Hi guys,
the only time I've seen mention of problems with copper pipe was with joints very close to the compressor and the heat of the compressor transfering to the pipe causing the first joint to break loose under pressure... the fix was silver solder in that joint and then no other problems...
several boards have had threads on this subject and most agree with high quality soldered copper or steel with black pipe being first choice then galv. the reason for black over galv is the chance of the galv. coating flaking off and blocking an valve or air tool... same reason for black pipe for natural gas over galv... flaking and blocking an orifice...
don't let a few bucks keep you from being safe... one trip to the emergency room wipes out all your savings... and hope that's all !!
later
john
the only time I've seen mention of problems with copper pipe was with joints very close to the compressor and the heat of the compressor transfering to the pipe causing the first joint to break loose under pressure... the fix was silver solder in that joint and then no other problems...
several boards have had threads on this subject and most agree with high quality soldered copper or steel with black pipe being first choice then galv. the reason for black over galv is the chance of the galv. coating flaking off and blocking an valve or air tool... same reason for black pipe for natural gas over galv... flaking and blocking an orifice...
don't let a few bucks keep you from being safe... one trip to the emergency room wipes out all your savings... and hope that's all !!
later
john
Thread Starter
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New User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
PVC is dangerous
I agree that buying black gas pipe is the best chose for all the reasons stated above. For a couple extra dollars more, you get peace of mind and no worry about plastic shrapnel flying around your shop. It only takes apiece as big as a grain of sand to put your eye out. I am sure none of us could live it down if that happened to one of our children.
You can buy Black Gas Pipe at Lowe’s Home Improvement, and they will cut the pipe to any length for no extra charge. I have gone back to Lowe’s several times to get the pipe cut to exact dimensions, and that was never a problem they’ll cut it again.
To use steel pipe make sure you got a plan laid out first because threading pipe is a little tricky then other methods.
Old Diver
You can buy Black Gas Pipe at Lowe’s Home Improvement, and they will cut the pipe to any length for no extra charge. I have gone back to Lowe’s several times to get the pipe cut to exact dimensions, and that was never a problem they’ll cut it again.
To use steel pipe make sure you got a plan laid out first because threading pipe is a little tricky then other methods.
Old Diver
Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
From: SW Maryland
PVC is dangerous
Also as a reminder, those PVC spud guns you have lying around the garage also fall in this catagory... The guilty out there know who you are, and that's all i'll say about that 
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
Likes: 37
PVC is dangerous
If you plan out your air system with a little leeway in your dimensions you can go shopping for a number of lengths of pipe, get extra pieces and fittings. Be flexible in where the outlets end up. Take the extra parts back when you are done. It saves a few trips back and forth to the store but not all of them...
You might want to use galvanized pipe for the drop legs below the outlets since moisture collects in them.
You might want to use galvanized pipe for the drop legs below the outlets since moisture collects in them.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
PVC is dangerous
I've been surfing around a few of the PVC safety related sites and got the vauge impression that you can use pvc in air systems as long as it is incased in a shatter proof enclosure. I took this to mean steel pipe or reenforced concrete. I like a challenge, but think I'll do mine in copper.
jniolon- Thanks for that second link. I've wanted to fix up my air system and that site gave me a bunch of info! And gave me more reasons to use copper. With all the slopes I'll need the bending will be quicker. I better put a sign up to explain why everythings not plumb and level. I'm already anticipating the looks I'm going to get! Sure will be nice to paint something without worrying so much about water splatter.
Kind of off topic, but when cutting pvc, for water or other intended purpose, I've found using a metal cutting abrasive wheel on my Skil saw makes a cut thats almost factory and it's a fast cut. Just thought I'd mention it. A lot of people know about it, but I still see hacksaws and recip saws out there...
jniolon- Thanks for that second link. I've wanted to fix up my air system and that site gave me a bunch of info! And gave me more reasons to use copper. With all the slopes I'll need the bending will be quicker. I better put a sign up to explain why everythings not plumb and level. I'm already anticipating the looks I'm going to get! Sure will be nice to paint something without worrying so much about water splatter.
Kind of off topic, but when cutting pvc, for water or other intended purpose, I've found using a metal cutting abrasive wheel on my Skil saw makes a cut thats almost factory and it's a fast cut. Just thought I'd mention it. A lot of people know about it, but I still see hacksaws and recip saws out there...
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Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,628
Likes: 345
From: Albuquerque
PVC is dangerous
Well I've seen some interesting stuff here about PVC and would be the first to agree that schedule 40 is not suitable, but....
Schedule 80 is a completely different animal. While I would use pipe if I did it again I wont be tearing out my existing system. This pipe is gray and has about 1/4" wall thickness. It has a working pressure of around 840psi. That's considerably more than the average air hose you would connect to it. It also only carries 100psi once in a while , hardly loaded. It is not subjected to extremes in temperature or ultraviolet light. It ain't the first time I've used something for a different purpose than it was intended. You might even find a couple of Ch*vy parts on my truck. It's been in place 15 years and I fully expect it to still be servicable when I'm dead.
Badea, badea that's all folks!
Schedule 80 is a completely different animal. While I would use pipe if I did it again I wont be tearing out my existing system. This pipe is gray and has about 1/4" wall thickness. It has a working pressure of around 840psi. That's considerably more than the average air hose you would connect to it. It also only carries 100psi once in a while , hardly loaded. It is not subjected to extremes in temperature or ultraviolet light. It ain't the first time I've used something for a different purpose than it was intended. You might even find a couple of Ch*vy parts on my truck. It's been in place 15 years and I fully expect it to still be servicable when I'm dead.
Badea, badea that's all folks!
Senior User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix USA
PVC is dangerous
I know this shouldn't surprise me. Those of you who have read this thread and hopefully learned a little something--congratulations and my hat is off to you. The people that are too stuborn to admit ever being wrong, I'm sure there is an ambulance ride waiting for you, and for this I am sorry.
I need not try to convince anyone else, those that can learn, have.
I need not try to convince anyone else, those that can learn, have.
Thread Starter
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New User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
PVC is dangerous
For those who are still in doubt about the risks involved with using PVC pipe for Compressed Air check out this link below. Then maybe you will see what we are saying.
Old Diver
http://www.lni.wa.gov/wisha/regs/wrds/wrd540.htm
Old Diver
http://www.lni.wa.gov/wisha/regs/wrds/wrd540.htm
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
Likes: 37
PVC is dangerous
Here is another big piece of information that I uploaded to my FTE website. Click on the link below:
There is a warning on the left side of the page under the NONO monkey...
My FTE Website Sorry still under construction...
This is the link to this info on the web:
http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/hib/hib_...b19880520.html
There is a ton of info out there just use google advanced search and search on;
Any words: pvc pipe
Exact phrase: compressed air
And for you bear...
This is the specs from a manufacturer of SCHED 80 PVC;
It says: NO COMPRESSED GASSES/AIR!
This file is in pdf format so you will need acrobat reader...
http://www.sunnyvalewindustrial.com/...80%20Specs.pdf
There is a warning on the left side of the page under the NONO monkey...
My FTE Website Sorry still under construction...
This is the link to this info on the web:
http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/hib/hib_...b19880520.html
There is a ton of info out there just use google advanced search and search on;
Any words: pvc pipe
Exact phrase: compressed air
And for you bear...This is the specs from a manufacturer of SCHED 80 PVC;
It says: NO COMPRESSED GASSES/AIR!
This file is in pdf format so you will need acrobat reader...
http://www.sunnyvalewindustrial.com/...80%20Specs.pdf
Last edited by Torque1st; Feb 22, 2003 at 08:05 AM.
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 339
Likes: 1
PVC is dangerous
O.K. You guy's have managed to scare the hell out of me with this. I had asked the question in another thread, but got the answer I was looking for here. I'm not stupid enough to try and out think a pro on piping. I've learned a lot here, and thank's. I guess now I'll go and tear out all my plastic piping.