manual trans thread
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Near Los Angeles
I'm surprised to find out the cost of a ZF. I suppose I could pull one from the j.yard, but then it would most likely need to be rebuilt. I'll toss it around a bit. Using the GV with the ZF really sounds appealing.
I would imagine possibly a 3 mpg gain on the highway.
I would imagine possibly a 3 mpg gain on the highway.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,021
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From: Almost Heaven
Mr Kevin, 3.55's are indeed best.
When I had 3.08's, I had good bottom end and great top end. With the 4.11 gear I have great bottom end and NO top end. Highway power is non exsistant, and you can forget gaining power by downshifting into second - you will only over-rev the engine.
When I had 3.08's, I had good bottom end and great top end. With the 4.11 gear I have great bottom end and NO top end. Highway power is non exsistant, and you can forget gaining power by downshifting into second - you will only over-rev the engine.
Thread Starter
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,193
Likes: 385
From: Near Los Angeles
Mr Kevin, 3.55's are indeed best.
When I had 3.08's, I had good bottom end and great top end. With the 4.11 gear I have great bottom end and NO top end. Highway power is non exsistant, and you can forget gaining power by downshifting into second - you will only over-rev the engine.
When I had 3.08's, I had good bottom end and great top end. With the 4.11 gear I have great bottom end and NO top end. Highway power is non exsistant, and you can forget gaining power by downshifting into second - you will only over-rev the engine.
Maybe I'll just stick on my Gear Vendor with the C6. I was just dying to try the ZF in double over-drive. It would be just soooooooooo nice to be pulling ...like 22 mpg!
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,021
Likes: 5
From: Almost Heaven
Mr. Kevin, the thing is sometimes it is best to just be happy with what you have. While I agree every 300 powered truck should be re-enforced with a manual transmission, you have one of the best automatics ever produced. With an under and over-drive attached it would become a dream machine.
My main thing is the power leaching. A stock 300 (like mine) can't afford to give power away, especially when the 300 becomes tired (like mine).
It's funny because I chose the 4.11 gear to compensate for the power loss the auto creates. Instead I only killed my top end power.
My main thing is the power leaching. A stock 300 (like mine) can't afford to give power away, especially when the 300 becomes tired (like mine).
It's funny because I chose the 4.11 gear to compensate for the power loss the auto creates. Instead I only killed my top end power.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
Mr. Kevin, the thing is sometimes it is best to just be happy with what you have. While I agree every 300 powered truck should be re-enforced with a manual transmission, you have one of the best automatics ever produced. With an under and over-drive attached it would become a dream machine.
My main thing is the power leaching. A stock 300 (like mine) can't afford to give power away, especially when the 300 becomes tired (like mine).
It's funny because I chose the 4.11 gear to compensate for the power loss the auto creates. Instead I only killed my top end power.
My main thing is the power leaching. A stock 300 (like mine) can't afford to give power away, especially when the 300 becomes tired (like mine).
It's funny because I chose the 4.11 gear to compensate for the power loss the auto creates. Instead I only killed my top end power.
Plus, the one installed in this truck has been built to better than stock configuration, adding back the parts deleted by ford, but also beefed up well beyond anything ford ever produced.
As I previously said, I wouldn't swap out a good working C6 for a manual trans, even if the C6 was 20-30 years old, and still totally stock. There is no way in H-E double L I would consider swapping out a C6 that has been built to the specs this has, unless someone else was paying me to do it. I'd also insist on the trans remaining in my possesion once the job was done........
For the record, I own 6 vehicles, and they are all 5 speed sticks, except my F150. I hate auto trans. I love the C6.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Near Los Angeles
Guys--thanks for all the great feedback! Right now the trans swap is just a whim. I am simply collecting info, copy/pasting tidbits about the various trans out there, educating myself, and seeing what feels right.
The C6 I had on my 390 took my son and I 18 hours into Baja, loaded with boat on top, and weighted to with a camper and 10 times more camping equipment and supplies than we could ever use. I believe we made that trip three times, limping home with vise grips clamped on my rear b. line. The only complaint I have is lack of o. drive and the mileage.
I laugh when it shifts, because it makes me think of my son sitting on the seat and kicking the shifter. That is how it shifts with the kit and all the mods. I am happy with it.
The C6 I had on my 390 took my son and I 18 hours into Baja, loaded with boat on top, and weighted to with a camper and 10 times more camping equipment and supplies than we could ever use. I believe we made that trip three times, limping home with vise grips clamped on my rear b. line. The only complaint I have is lack of o. drive and the mileage.
I laugh when it shifts, because it makes me think of my son sitting on the seat and kicking the shifter. That is how it shifts with the kit and all the mods. I am happy with it.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,193
Likes: 385
From: Near Los Angeles
I found some very interesting information on the ZF transmissions. Enjoy. I thought the 6 speeds were interesting. I was also reading that ZF is going to be putting 8 sp. auto trannies in GM vehicles soon.
Transmission - ZF S6-650
Note: the 7.3L has a different bellhousing bolt pattern than all the other Modular engines
ZF 6 speed manual
</td> <td width="65">Year
</td> <td width="175">Trans Model
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco</td> <td>88-92</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F150 2wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F150 4wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F250/350 2wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F250/350 4wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F250/350 4wd</td> <td>97-99</td> <td>5spd mazda/toyo kogyo</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 2wd</td> <td>99-01</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 4wd</td> <td>99-01</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 2wd</td> <td>02-09</td> <td>6spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 4wd</td> <td>02-09</td> <td>6spd ZF</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Identification:
One of the easiest ways to spot a ZF5 is ribbed crisscross pattern on the sides. Both transmissions are aluminum and have an integral bell housing (one piece with the transmission) with a top mounted shift tower. Look for a PTO cover plates on the driver's side. The case also has ZF cast into the side. Weight for each unit is approximately 175 lbs. for the 5sp and the 6sp is about 230 lbs.
Adapter required?
The ZF integral bell housing will bolt directly to your stock 8 cyl engine. The bolt pattern for the 7.3l Powerstroke is not the same as any of the other Modular engines. They also require a new spud shaft for my transfer case. Due to the fact that my truck has a divorced transfer case it seems I would be able to use either 4x4 or 2x4 transmission. However I have gotten a 2x4 transmission.
Modifications needed:
The swap requires a custom fabricated cross member. It also requires a hydraulic clutch due to the integral bell housing. The addition of a hydraulic master cylinder will also need to done. The only issues I can seem to find from forums are replacing the original 4 speed floor pan with one from an automatic,then cut a hole for the shifter. The ZF shift lever is positioned further forward than the OEM unit. In addition the seam on the firewall will rub and needs to be flattened out. The list below is for reference as to the gear ratios. I don't want an Automatic but list some of them for reference.
<!-- START RATIO CHART --> <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"> <tbody><tr> <td width="180">Manual Transmissions
</td> <td width="40">1st
</td> <td width="40">2nd
</td> <td width="40">3rd
</td> <td width="40">4th
</td> <td width="40">5th
</td> <td width="40">6th
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco 3 spd (6 cyl)</td> <td>3.41</td> <td>1.86</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco 3 spd (8 cyl)</td> <td>2.99</td> <td>1.75</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>NP 435</td> <td>6.69</td> <td>3.34</td> <td>1.79</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>T-18</td> <td>6.32</td> <td>3.09</td> <td>1.69</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Toploader (Close ratio)</td> <td>2.32</td> <td>1.69</td> <td>1.29</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Toploader (Wide ratio)</td> <td>2.78</td> <td>1.93</td> <td>1.35</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Toploader (Overdrive)</td> <td>3.29</td> <td>1.84</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.81</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>ZF5</td> <td>5.72</td> <td>2.94</td> <td>1.61</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.76</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>ZF6</td> <td>5.79</td> <td>3.31</td> <td>2.10</td> <td>1.31</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.72</td> </tr> <tr> <td>NV4500 (Dodge)</td> <td>5.61</td> <td>3.04</td> <td>1.67</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.73</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="180">Automatic Transmissions
</td> <td width="40">1st
</td> <td width="40">2nd
</td> <td width="40">3rd
</td> <td width="40">4th
</td> <td width="40">5th
</td> <td width="40">6th
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco C4</td> <td>2.46</td> <td>1.46</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>C6</td> <td>2.46</td> <td>1.46</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>AOD</td> <td>2.40</td> <td>1.47</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.67</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>AOD w/ low gear set</td> <td>2.84</td> <td>1.55</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.67</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>AODE/4R70W*</td> <td>2.84</td> <td>1.55</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.67</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>700R4</td> <td>3.06</td> <td>1.62</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.70</td> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table>
Transmission - ZF S6-650
Note: the 7.3L has a different bellhousing bolt pattern than all the other Modular engines
The original transmission is a 4 speed New Process 435. It is not going to be part of the rebuild. The gearing is way to low and only allows the truck to reach a maximum speed of about 70mph.
ZF stands for Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen.
An important thing to know if you are thinking of a similar project is this. Most web sites seem to say that the only 6spd available in new ford trucks is available with the diesel 7.3l engine. The 7.3l has a different bell housing bolt pattern than the rest of the engines available for the Ford Super Duty, so don't get one from a 7.3l and expect it to bolt to a 5.4l. My understanding is that the 6spd became available in trucks with a 5.4l starting in '02. I currently have a ZF S6-650 out of an '02 F250 4x2 mounted to a 5.4l. So it will mount to the Modular 5.4l that I have out of a Navigator. One big difference between the transmission available for the 7.3l and the other design is the fact that the transmission for the 7.3l has a PTO drive on both sides where the other transmission only has a PTO drive on the drivers side only. Otherwise it is the same, it still has cooler lines coming out of it on the passengers side of the case. Id tags are mounted on the left side of the main case. If you get the Ford part number off the tag you can look it up on this chart and verify what vehicle it came from.
Gear ratios...
1st = 5.79, 2nd = 3.31, 3rd = 2.10, 4th = 1.31, 5th = 1.00, 6th = 0.76 Reverse = 5.23
and from the ZF Freidrichshafen AG - AZ North America web site...
ZF 6-speed manual transmissions are designed for Ford and GM truck drivers who place a high premium on performance with flexibility, and responsiveness with control. With simple H-pattern shifting allowing for 3-up seating and easy "toggling" between 1st and reverse for increased maneuverability. ZF transmissions are easy and more comfortable to operate. With lightweight aluminum housings, they provide improved fuel efficiency with lower maintenance and repair costs while delivering a increased torque capacity for today's high powered pickup trucks.
ZF transmissions are true workhorses, designed and built for optimal flexibility during repetitive heavy-duty tasks and ideally suited for the harshest environments, while at the same time offering a rather engaging driving experience.
ZF 6-speed manual transmissions are available standard on GM trucks with 6600 Duramax, and 8100 Vortec engines, and Ford trucks with 5.4L V8, 6.8L V10 and PowerStroke 6.0L engines.
Sources:
I am finding a discrepancy in these dates. However on a few web sites I find that the ZF5 was used in 1988 or later Ford 4 wheel drive pick up with small block engine. The ZF S542 was used from 1988-1994 and the ZF S547 from 1995 on. However if you look at the ZF Wiki it clearly shows different information for the ZF S547. The ZF S6-650 seems to match this information, the only thing is I'm pretty sure that Ford still uses the ZF S6-650 in '09.
<!-- START Transmission CHART --> <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"> <tbody><tr> <td width="180">ModelZF stands for Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen.
An important thing to know if you are thinking of a similar project is this. Most web sites seem to say that the only 6spd available in new ford trucks is available with the diesel 7.3l engine. The 7.3l has a different bell housing bolt pattern than the rest of the engines available for the Ford Super Duty, so don't get one from a 7.3l and expect it to bolt to a 5.4l. My understanding is that the 6spd became available in trucks with a 5.4l starting in '02. I currently have a ZF S6-650 out of an '02 F250 4x2 mounted to a 5.4l. So it will mount to the Modular 5.4l that I have out of a Navigator. One big difference between the transmission available for the 7.3l and the other design is the fact that the transmission for the 7.3l has a PTO drive on both sides where the other transmission only has a PTO drive on the drivers side only. Otherwise it is the same, it still has cooler lines coming out of it on the passengers side of the case. Id tags are mounted on the left side of the main case. If you get the Ford part number off the tag you can look it up on this chart and verify what vehicle it came from.
Gear ratios...
1st = 5.79, 2nd = 3.31, 3rd = 2.10, 4th = 1.31, 5th = 1.00, 6th = 0.76 Reverse = 5.23
and from the ZF Freidrichshafen AG - AZ North America web site...
ZF 6-speed manual transmissions are designed for Ford and GM truck drivers who place a high premium on performance with flexibility, and responsiveness with control. With simple H-pattern shifting allowing for 3-up seating and easy "toggling" between 1st and reverse for increased maneuverability. ZF transmissions are easy and more comfortable to operate. With lightweight aluminum housings, they provide improved fuel efficiency with lower maintenance and repair costs while delivering a increased torque capacity for today's high powered pickup trucks.
ZF transmissions are true workhorses, designed and built for optimal flexibility during repetitive heavy-duty tasks and ideally suited for the harshest environments, while at the same time offering a rather engaging driving experience.
ZF 6-speed manual transmissions are available standard on GM trucks with 6600 Duramax, and 8100 Vortec engines, and Ford trucks with 5.4L V8, 6.8L V10 and PowerStroke 6.0L engines.
Sources:
I am finding a discrepancy in these dates. However on a few web sites I find that the ZF5 was used in 1988 or later Ford 4 wheel drive pick up with small block engine. The ZF S542 was used from 1988-1994 and the ZF S547 from 1995 on. However if you look at the ZF Wiki it clearly shows different information for the ZF S547. The ZF S6-650 seems to match this information, the only thing is I'm pretty sure that Ford still uses the ZF S6-650 in '09.
</td> <td width="65">Year
</td> <td width="175">Trans Model
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco</td> <td>88-92</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F150 2wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F150 4wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F250/350 2wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F250/350 4wd</td> <td>88-96</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ford F250/350 4wd</td> <td>97-99</td> <td>5spd mazda/toyo kogyo</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 2wd</td> <td>99-01</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 4wd</td> <td>99-01</td> <td>5spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 2wd</td> <td>02-09</td> <td>6spd ZF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>F250F350 SDUTY 4wd</td> <td>02-09</td> <td>6spd ZF</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Identification:
One of the easiest ways to spot a ZF5 is ribbed crisscross pattern on the sides. Both transmissions are aluminum and have an integral bell housing (one piece with the transmission) with a top mounted shift tower. Look for a PTO cover plates on the driver's side. The case also has ZF cast into the side. Weight for each unit is approximately 175 lbs. for the 5sp and the 6sp is about 230 lbs.
Adapter required?
The ZF integral bell housing will bolt directly to your stock 8 cyl engine. The bolt pattern for the 7.3l Powerstroke is not the same as any of the other Modular engines. They also require a new spud shaft for my transfer case. Due to the fact that my truck has a divorced transfer case it seems I would be able to use either 4x4 or 2x4 transmission. However I have gotten a 2x4 transmission.
Modifications needed:
The swap requires a custom fabricated cross member. It also requires a hydraulic clutch due to the integral bell housing. The addition of a hydraulic master cylinder will also need to done. The only issues I can seem to find from forums are replacing the original 4 speed floor pan with one from an automatic,then cut a hole for the shifter. The ZF shift lever is positioned further forward than the OEM unit. In addition the seam on the firewall will rub and needs to be flattened out. The list below is for reference as to the gear ratios. I don't want an Automatic but list some of them for reference.
</td> <td width="40">1st
</td> <td width="40">2nd
</td> <td width="40">3rd
</td> <td width="40">4th
</td> <td width="40">5th
</td> <td width="40">6th
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco 3 spd (6 cyl)</td> <td>3.41</td> <td>1.86</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco 3 spd (8 cyl)</td> <td>2.99</td> <td>1.75</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>NP 435</td> <td>6.69</td> <td>3.34</td> <td>1.79</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>T-18</td> <td>6.32</td> <td>3.09</td> <td>1.69</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Toploader (Close ratio)</td> <td>2.32</td> <td>1.69</td> <td>1.29</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Toploader (Wide ratio)</td> <td>2.78</td> <td>1.93</td> <td>1.35</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Toploader (Overdrive)</td> <td>3.29</td> <td>1.84</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.81</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>ZF5</td> <td>5.72</td> <td>2.94</td> <td>1.61</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.76</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>ZF6</td> <td>5.79</td> <td>3.31</td> <td>2.10</td> <td>1.31</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.72</td> </tr> <tr> <td>NV4500 (Dodge)</td> <td>5.61</td> <td>3.04</td> <td>1.67</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>0.73</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="180">Automatic Transmissions
</td> <td width="40">1st
</td> <td width="40">2nd
</td> <td width="40">3rd
</td> <td width="40">4th
</td> <td width="40">5th
</td> <td width="40">6th
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bronco C4</td> <td>2.46</td> <td>1.46</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>C6</td> <td>2.46</td> <td>1.46</td> <td>1.00</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>AOD</td> <td>2.40</td> <td>1.47</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.67</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>AOD w/ low gear set</td> <td>2.84</td> <td>1.55</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.67</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>AODE/4R70W*</td> <td>2.84</td> <td>1.55</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.67</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>700R4</td> <td>3.06</td> <td>1.62</td> <td>1.00</td> <td>.70</td> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table>
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