Thorley Header Install
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
Likes: 12
From: SE Texas
I really wish those guys at Thorley had a clue about the engine management system on these vehicles. The O2 sensor bungs are nowhere near where they need to be to properly make closed loop air/fuel adjustments. I know what they were doing-they're trying to eliminate the need for extenders and other such add-ons to the cost of the header "kit", but in the long run-you'd be better off by adding another O2 bung and moving those O2's to a location that can sample the exhaust gas on all 5 cylinders for each bank. I like the way those are made-and if I remember correctly, Thorley uses 14ga tubing, which is another thing I really like. I just wish they would have thought about it and/or consulted someone that understands the engine management system when they discussed where to put the O2 sensors.
JL
JL
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,561
Likes: 421
From: Long Island USA
I really wish those guys at Thorley had a clue about the engine management system on these vehicles. The O2 sensor bungs are nowhere near where they need to be to properly make closed loop air/fuel adjustments. I know what they were doing-they're trying to eliminate the need for extenders and other such add-ons to the cost of the header "kit", but in the long run-you'd be better off by adding another O2 bung and moving those O2's to a location that can sample the exhaust gas on all 5 cylinders for each bank. I like the way those are made-and if I remember correctly, Thorley uses 14ga tubing, which is another thing I really like. I just wish they would have thought about it and/or consulted someone that understands the engine management system when they discussed where to put the O2 sensors.
JL
JL
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 246
Likes: 1
From: Westerville, Ohio
I really wish those guys at Thorley had a clue about the engine management system on these vehicles. The O2 sensor bungs are nowhere near where they need to be to properly make closed loop air/fuel adjustments. I know what they were doing-they're trying to eliminate the need for extenders and other such add-ons to the cost of the header "kit", but in the long run-you'd be better off by adding another O2 bung and moving those O2's to a location that can sample the exhaust gas on all 5 cylinders for each bank. I like the way those are made-and if I remember correctly, Thorley uses 14ga tubing, which is another thing I really like. I just wish they would have thought about it and/or consulted someone that understands the engine management system when they discussed where to put the O2 sensors.
JL
JL
I see your point about the O2 sensors. It would be fairly easy to put another bung on each bank in a better location. What effect would putting more distance between the exhaust port and the O2 sensor have on engine management? I would think minimal if any.
You've definitely given me something to think about. For now, I'm just going to drive it awhile and if I think it's causing issues, I'll relocate them. But then again, how will I know it if the non-sampled cylinders are the issue?
Hmmm...
Stew
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
Likes: 12
From: SE Texas
14ga tubing is correct.
I see your point about the O2 sensors. It would be fairly easy to put another bung on each bank in a better location. What effect would putting more distance between the exhaust port and the O2 sensor have on engine management? I would think minimal if any.
You've definitely given me something to think about. For now, I'm just going to drive it awhile and if I think it's causing issues, I'll relocate them. But then again, how will I know it if the non-sampled cylinders are the issue?
Hmmm...
Stew
I see your point about the O2 sensors. It would be fairly easy to put another bung on each bank in a better location. What effect would putting more distance between the exhaust port and the O2 sensor have on engine management? I would think minimal if any.
You've definitely given me something to think about. For now, I'm just going to drive it awhile and if I think it's causing issues, I'll relocate them. But then again, how will I know it if the non-sampled cylinders are the issue?
Hmmm...
Stew
JL
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 246
Likes: 1
From: Westerville, Ohio
If I were to move the sensors I wonder if Mike at 5-star can adjust that setting with his tunes. If so, how would you calculate the difference?
Thanks for the kind words. Not being allowed doesn't mean we can't do a clandestine operation once in awhile.
It's been my pleasure to serve. The Air Force has been good to me these past 20 years and I hope to give 10 more before they make me leave.Stew
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Junior User
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 73
Likes: 1
From: Sperry Iowa
14ga tubing is correct.
I see your point about the O2 sensors. It would be fairly easy to put another bung on each bank in a better location. What effect would putting more distance between the exhaust port and the O2 sensor have on engine management? I would think minimal if any.
You've definitely given me something to think about. For now, I'm just going to drive it awhile and if I think it's causing issues, I'll relocate them. But then again, how will I know it if the non-sampled cylinders are the issue?
Hmmm...
Stew
I see your point about the O2 sensors. It would be fairly easy to put another bung on each bank in a better location. What effect would putting more distance between the exhaust port and the O2 sensor have on engine management? I would think minimal if any.
You've definitely given me something to think about. For now, I'm just going to drive it awhile and if I think it's causing issues, I'll relocate them. But then again, how will I know it if the non-sampled cylinders are the issue?
Hmmm...
Stew
Carburetors worked just fine for years till EPA got their noses into everything... And we don't have no smog sniffers around here to check on us anyway
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
Likes: 12
From: SE Texas
I have the same setup, and I'm not worried about the closed loop being off because of not catching a sniff of every cylinder. It wont know which ones its checking anyway... Only time it would make a big deal is if a injector or plug went bad, then you'd hear a miss anyway.
Carburetors worked just fine for years till EPA got their noses into everything... And we don't have no smog sniffers around here to check on us anyway
Carburetors worked just fine for years till EPA got their noses into everything... And we don't have no smog sniffers around here to check on us anyway
JL
Freshman User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 45
Likes: 2
From: Southern Maine
Hi Stew, very nice job on the write up, especially the pics. I should be recieving my set of Thorleys in about a week. Quite a few weeks ago the whole issue of O2 sensor location was brought up and it had me thinking about it ever since. After seeing your post yesterday, I called and spoke with Mike @ 5star, and he confirmed what JL has been suggesting all along. Absolutelly not a problem to account for with his tunes, just buy 2 sensor plugs, $9.00ea, weld them in, take a few measurements extend the harnesses and then hand it over to him. He's all over it. Great guy, and as all on this board and others agree, always at the end of the phone to help out with a passion. Food for thought....
Mike
Mike
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 145
Likes: 1
Headers look awesome! They also appear to have more room to tighten the bolts than my Gibson's have. I like the fact they include the Y-pipe. It almost like they thought about what they where doing!!LOL
The O2 location is interesting, has anyone called Thorley and asked them their reasoning?
The O2 location is interesting, has anyone called Thorley and asked them their reasoning?
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 246
Likes: 1
From: Westerville, Ohio
Hi Stew, very nice job on the write up, especially the pics. I should be recieving my set of Thorleys in about a week. Quite a few weeks ago the whole issue of O2 sensor location was brought up and it had me thinking about it ever since. After seeing your post yesterday, I called and spoke with Mike @ 5star, and he confirmed what JL has been suggesting all along. Absolutelly not a problem to account for with his tunes, just buy 2 sensor plugs, $9.00ea, weld them in, take a few measurements extend the harnesses and then hand it over to him. He's all over it. Great guy, and as all on this board and others agree, always at the end of the phone to help out with a passion. Food for thought....
Mike
Mike
When you install yours, follow the directions but I would change one thing. The directions say to torque the driver side header bolts and then move to the passenger side. DON'T DO IT! It won't give at all and makes it a real pain to insert the crossover pipe while getting the passenger side header in place; and also makes it difficult to line the bolt holes up on the passenger side.
Instead, put all the drivers side bolts in loosely (maybe halfway). Now slip the crossover onto it. I recommend help for this next part. Now slide the passenger side header in place and onto the other end of the crossover. Put the passenger side bolts in about halfway. Now go back and torque the driver side bolts, make sure the crossover is properly aligned, and then torque the passenger side bolts.
Make sure you use anti-seize.
If you want to use the stainless band clamps like mine they are made by Walker and the part # is 33226. I got them on Amazon for about $10 with free shipping.
Good luck!
Stew
Junior User
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 73
Likes: 1
From: Sperry Iowa
Ok smart one tell me just how does the eecu know which cylinders its reading the exh from... If you want a true closed loop you would need a sensor on each cylinder...
That ain't going to happen. Plus each injector isn't adjusted to the oxy sensor each time it fires... You are giving them way to much credit. Its just a half *** closed loop system, it could care less how many cylinders its testing.
Plus if its testing 5 cylinders and 4 are ok the other one would have to be way off to over ride what the others are putting out... Or two could be way on the lean side and two just right so that would mean one could be way rich and still be in specks....
Just something for you desk top mechanics to think about before you come out to the real world...
