John, PLEASE, for the sake of your trucks, they are nice btw, go talk to anybody who manages a fleet of light to medium duty trucks, or the guy who machined your last motor. Times have changed. The fed wants our dirty gross polluters off the roads so they can make daewoos (about 16-17 by my guess) out of them. How does the gov. get what they want? By taking it. Since they can't take our classics, they've tried but we're a rabid bunch,they'll just make it harder for us to be able to use and enjoy them. I doubt you'll find a study on zinc and phosphate needed for a flat tappet motor as we're one of the most highly censured countries on the planet. In 1964, there was zddp in all major brasnds of oil. Why? The manufacturers required it to make their motors last more than 20,000 miles. Why did they put it in all motor oils until recently? That had to be an 80 or 90 year run with the stuff. Why would they put it in there for so long if we didn't need it? Apparently, we do. I never said dead dinosaurs were bad, I use them in my Fairmont and I don't recall Rotella being a full synthetic.
My personal experience with lack of zinc goes like this: I grew up on the family farm. My dad, an uncle, a great uncle and granddad farm 2800 acres. We had this gmc, about '78 model with the 427. The maintenance was always kept up, grain trucks only run about 2-3 months out of the year and don't sit and idle all day. Every 4 years, it needed a new cam. Every 6-7 years it needed bearings. Finally sent the oil in to be tested. They said it was magnetic. Duh, there was half of a camshaft floating around in it. Why? Deere Power Fluid (hyd. oil) has very little zinc in it. My great uncle Gene is a known tightwad and wouldn't pony up the extra money for 50 weight MOTOR oil. Why pay more when you can get 50 wt hydraulic oil for 2/3 the price? Because it has no zddp in the oil. He learned, 20+ years ago. Please, please, please talk to someone in the know. Our trucks need the extra love, they've come a looong way. Rich

 

Has anyone ever found the feds excuse to be kinda odd. It clogs catalitic convereters?
We started using cats in the early 70s. They havent realy changed that darn much in the past 40years. Why all of a sudden is it a cat clogger? So after 30 years of not clogging cats it all of a sudden started doing this?

BTW-There is a full synthetic Rotella. It is pricy though.

I posted this previously in another argument on the subject but I will post it again.

Shane,
Yes, Rottela15W-40 provides sufficent anti wear properties (1200ppm od zinc) for your older flat tappet gasoline engine. (mono grades contain 1000ppm.)

Gasoline only oils for newer cars contain only about 800ppm.

Keith.

I dont know how to transfer the email so I typed it. I called him and spoke with him personaly and he confirmed that the ZDDP content of the 10W-30 and synthetic to be at 1200ppm and 1000ppm specificly.
I would assume that any oil with a ZDDP of 1000ppm or higher to be totaly sufficent. Roller cams do not need this. What makes gear oil special? Sulfer. What does it do the same damn thing as ZDDP! It coats the metal to metal interface and functions as a hard to displace high pressure lubricant. Save a few bucks john and use some 80W90 in your engine. It goes for less then $2 a quart around here.

 

Rich, I think I can see where you got off track with the POS GM engine and fleets. No current fleets run these engines. A few trucks here may be used daily as a must go vehicle, but most are light duty. One must not compare apples to grapes.

You want me to read articles promoting additive use, find some that show my engine failed after 5, 10, 20, 50 thousand miles because I didn't use zink additives. I don't think they are there.

I still have to keep an ice box in my bed, because my truck is still hauling ice after rebuild 12years ago.

cheers



John

 

Tons of farmers and construction companies are still using vehicles powered with 427, 350 chevies. Lots of 330 and 370 fords running around too.

These MD trucks all have flat tappets in them. How about all the diesels with flat tappets?

 

John, I think he was referring to oils that have zinc in them as part of the basic additive package versus something like EOS or ZDDP that you add to oils. Also since most people were probably still getting API service oil marked SL, up to about 2 years ago, one is not going to see a drastic change right away. So one cannot reference old engines and say this or that happened to them. We do know that newly rebuilt engines, particularly with higher spring pressures, have had premature lobe failure. The cam companies are certainly aware of it and base their warranty on using the correct break-in oils. So, in my case, where a new cam is going into the Cougar which has higher spring pressures and am using the Brad Penn break-in oil or I void my warranty. I think with our older engines, running a few thousands a year, there may or may not be a long term consequence. The problem is that we'd have to wait out the long term to see what happens and so some people will opt to play it safe. I play it safe and as long as I can get Delo oils then I am fine. Someday all these oils will be gone, then...?

 

I would use a 30-weight (0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30) Heavy Duty Engine Oil in your truck. 15W-40 will also work fine but the higher viscosity will waste power and fuel efficiency.

 

If you need zinc in a flat tappet engine, why do briggs and stratton engines require 10w-30 oil and have flatt tappets? Is it because they have plastic cam lobes?

 

Well said, Mike.
Regarding your "then...?"question, I suspect folks will have access to zinc additives for some time yet.... at least until our Gov't effectively prohibits driving these old beasts as daily drivers... relegating them to parades and trailered-to auto shows... How many model T's do you see on the road while on your way to work these days?

Fraso,
I agree with you in theory, but in reality, I highly doubt that the owner of even a 223 6-cylinder would even notice a reduction in power or fuel mileage by using a 15w-40 motor oil. They would surely not notice any change if they had a V8 engine.

The one condition where I'd expect the owner would notice a difference with the thicker viscosity 15w-40 motor oil is IF they were trying to start their engine in cold (<25*F) weather. But I'd guess that these days the vast majority of these old trucks are "sleeping" during the cold weather months and don't need to worry about that any longer.

No, they don't have plastic cam lobes. According to the B&S Owner's Manual I have, it recommends to only use 10W-30 (non-synthetic) motor oil IF OPERATING IN LESS THAN 40*F outside temperatures! If operating above 40*F, the only non-synthetic motor oil they recommend is straight 30W oil.

Not surprising, B&S sells straight 30W motor oil for their lawnmowers and mentions that it, "...is formulated to meet the unique demands...". I'm thinking it just might contain some zinc?

From their web site: Parts & Supplies - Briggs & Stratton

"Lawnmower Oil - 100005; SAE 30 weight Briggs & Stratton lawnmower oil is formulated to meet the unique demands created by air cooled 4-cycle engines-Tested and approved by Briggs & Stratton engineers-Warranty certified and recommended in all Briggs & Stratton manuals-A high quality detergent oil classified SJ/CD by the API..."

BarnieTrk

 

Well what are they made out of? I've taken apart a couple B&S motors and they both had plastic cam gears and plastic cam lobes. I dont know what they are made of, but they are not metal and they sure look and feel like plastic.

 

Well, I stand corrected then.

I've seen "plastic" gears, but I have not seen plastic cam lobes.
But I haven't torn apart any B&S engines built in the past 15+ years either.

We've all seen the use of a some sort of plastic / synthetic material used with Ford OEM timing gears and speedometer gears. Today plastic gears are used in many of our office copiers and printers, automatic garage door openers, clothes washing machine transmissions, etc. in an effort to quiet them and to make them lighter and of course, cheaper. Most of these uses are relatively low pressure applications.

Hmmmm,,,,,I don't know what the spring pressures would be on a modern OHV B&S valve / cam lifter......... interesting.
BarnieTrk

 

15W-40 at -20F in a 292 takes aprox 3 min to reach 40 psi and 5 to hit 60!

Getting the needle to move takes almost 30 seconds!

A 292 W a 180 degree thermostat at -30f reads the block as having a temp of 105.
Adding a full sheet of cardboard raises the operating temp to 140.

The funniest thing is that the old 292 sparks up at -32f on the first try. My wifes EFI driven escape has to be cranked for about 10 seconds to fire at that temp even if it is plugged in. The Y was not plugged in.

No I do not normaly run 15W-40 in january. I usualy use 10W-30 which pumps up to a good PSI alot quicker.

I run 10W-30 at -36f in my 85 F150 which has a 300 with no ill effects other than the lifters clatter for about 15 seconds.

Thought yall might get a kick out of my cold weather oil experiences.

Oh yeah, I use rotella. That damn escape gets 5W-20 motorcraft synthetic blend.

 

I am very impressed the 292 I had in my '63 F100 would give me the middle finger if I wanted to start it anywhere under + 20 degrees. (without a hot-start) Of course I was using cenex oil which isn't the fancy stuff.

Vern

 

That's why the diesel oils (like Rotella) still have zinc in them.

 

That was the point in me saying that.

 

I'm with CooGAR -- I like the Castrol High Mileage 10W-40.

Tried switching to full synthetic on other non-slick high mile engines and found perfectly tight and dry engines suddenly leaking oil where they never had before. Switched back and leaks dried up.

My 352 doesn't quite fall into the perfectly tight and dry category -- at least not until my next go round with the intake manifold, but after switching from standard dino to the high mileage formula I noticed a lot less of it on the garage floor. So I think the conditioners may be helping with the old seals.