If you have an chance at joining a union, I say go for it. After many years at deadend jobs I can definatly say working in a union shop was the best thing for me. Yes there are bad sides to a union but also many upsides. Yes there are lazy people just like at every place that is non-union has them also.

Proud member of : UAW Local 900 Wayne, Michigan
(Ford Focus- Expedition & Lincoln Navigator)

Kevin

 

My plant has an open shop with the International Chemical Workers Union. When I started my career with the company, 13 years ago, I was approached by the shift steward about joining. He gave me all the reasons I should join and leaned real heavily on the fact that it would keep my job as long as I showed up everyday. I asked him one simple question...would the company treat me any different if I was in the union or not? His reply was something like...no, but if they try to fire you, the union will keep you your job.
I told him I would not be joining the ICWU and he was the reason. If a steward implies that the union is there only to guarantee me a job, then I don't want it.
Now, as the Manager of a department, I reflect on the fact that I earned my job. I hired in as a production worker and in just three or four years, my talents were recognized on their own merits and I was promoted to management. If I had joined the union, I would not be allowed to fill other jobs, learn all there is to know about the glass business and advance my career.
Now as a manager, I butt heads with the union all the time because my employees do not follow the rules (mostly safety and attendance) and when confronted with disciplinary action, they Immediately start complaining its not fair and we are picking on them. The company has clear-cut rules regarding these two areas and we have to follow them to the letter.
Now for the fuel... personally it is my opinion that in our case, the union is a hindrance to any employees future and only benefits the unmotivated and uneducated.

 

I was once a proud member of the IBEW, in fact a foreman; shop steward and negotiator. One year while on strike our Business Agent threatened that if the "Company" didn't agree to "Union" terms he'd put them out of business!
Guess what? he did.
Now... I ask you? How did the 300 some families across the country feel about Mr. Business Agents stand? He's still there 17 years later collecting his big fat salary, while most of us got flushed to $10.00 - $16.00 hr jobs.
If you go union, go in with your eyes open & your mouth shut; keep your options open and be prepared to be unemployed at any minute. Use the dispute & grievance clauses to there full extent that's the only real value in a union these days. They can and will protect there members no matter who they are. Remember that unions are big businesses also & many times have had strikes by there own office unions; see everybody's in it for the money they don't care about you - just the dues. Your local members are brothers & sisters but it ends there.
Been there done that, got the T-shirt,hat, badge, pin and card.

BTW: Since then I've been Managing & Consulting for more than most, but not all union rates.

 

well they can be good and bad. My dads shop got closed down and his Union did nothing to help all the workers who lost thier jobs. Now I belong to a Union and they have helped me out a couple of times. So as always with good there is bad.



Alpine

 

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Waxy

You're welcome to your own opinion.

this is true...........but I never wrote It.............

 

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For someone who doesn't like unions .......You sure seem to think you know a lot about them........

I've worked side by side with unions for most of my life so far, everything from construction workers and city employees, to a government union of core handlers (core samples from oil wells). My guess is (I won't make any rash, unfounded judgements on your knowledge of unions) I have every bit as much experience as you do with unions, just maybe not the same experience.

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I really get tired of people like you who think they know it all.

Same here.

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To group everybody in one category Because you had a bad experience is neither sensible nor intelligent.

I think you're following quote of MY INITIAL POST explains my stance on this, so I don't know where this is coming from.

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That being said, I surely don't think that every person working for a union, or every union, fits the stereotype, and I have met those that don't. I know that there are a lot of hard working people out there that earn their living. I also appreciate what unions have done historically for improving the working conditions of the average employee.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unions take away the ability of the individual to excel and advance at his/her own pace.
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Then how do we get....... foreman......general foreman.......project managers......... ect

Good question, let's say that right now, you could do a better job than your foreman is doing, and your foreman's boss knows it, do you get promoted to foreman tomorrow? next month? next year? or when he retires? Would the union allow you to leapfrog him? Would the union allow him to be demoted or get fired?

In a non-union, competitive environment, those that are dead weight are quickly eliminated or bypassed. In a union situation it is very difficult to eliminate the dead weight.

I notice you carefully left this sentence out of your quotes, I think it answers your question.

"Advancement is a carefully controlled process based more on seniority than competency."

In most unions time in controls advancement, often by a regimented schedule. Again, this is not true of all unions, but in my experience. Of course there are other factors involved such as education.

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yes..... If you try and do everyones job,then nobody will like you
If your craft is..... IRON WORKER..... then don't be welding on a pipe......thats...... PIPEFITTERS..... work........
If your a........CARPENTER ........then don't run a dozer......
thats operators work...ect

I'm not referring to doing other people's jobs, but that's a good point. Why is this? If I'm on a job site, and there is a simple welding or operator job to do that I or someone else is capable of doing and it's holding up the project, why not just do it? I've been on a couple sites where we would shut down for a day to wait for a union welder to do a 1/2hr of simple welding. The union guys don't mind, it's like a holiday for them and they're sticking up for their brothers. I don't get paid and the project falls even further behind. It's that kind of experience I find so frustrating.

Now, my original point was this, and I've seen it in action way too many times. The new guy or someone eager comes in and does the same amount of work that everyone else does in a day before noon. He is quickly told to slow down and tow the line, if he doesn't he's an outcast because he makes everyone else look bad.

Again I WANT TO STRESS that these are my experiences. I have no experience with the large American unions such as the steelworkers, and I'm not saying that all unions function in this manner.

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IMHO, unions foster an environment of complacency and mediocrity, rather than advancement and excellence.
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you're right ,In..... YOUR OPINION........ which doesn't necessarily make It correct..........

It certainly doesn't, and nor did I claim it to be.

There is no correct in a discussion like this, as most others have said, unions have a good and a bad, whether you lean one way or the other is a personal preference. One that you'll likely base on your experiences with unions.

Waxy

 

I agree. They can be good and bad.

 

I have seen this! Good example of the bad effects.

 

yes........ I guess you could say I'm pro union ... but just a little..
But in my initial post I did say there was good AND bad points.......I never once said there wasn't........ however what one calls a bad point,I might think its a good point........ case in point

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If I'm on a job site, and there is a simple welding or operator job to do that I or someone else is capable of doing and it's holding up the project, why not just do it? I've been on a couple sites where we would shut down for a day to wait for a union welder to do a 1/2hr of simple welding.
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In trade work you are specializing in ONE craft.......... If someone is willing to do your job then what do they need you for.....If you get a person thats willing to do carpenters,iron workers,labors,pipefitters,and operators work then that ONE guy just knocked out five people from work.........

I'm sure to someone that anti union that makes sense....... But not to me................

 

As a member of the

International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers L.U.890 I love my job. I can travel any where in the country and work (if there is work) I've seen a lot and met a lot of good people.I can work when I want where I want for the most part. I try and work about 9 months out of the year(My choice). I say go for it. But remember when the economy goes south the construction industry is the first to go. So when your working and making good money SAVE some for the bad times.Good luck in whatever you decide to do and if you decide to go for it maybe I'll see you on the next big one.

 

This seems to be a hot topic. I think the good/bad union issues depend on the industry and where your located. Myself, being a jack of all trades would find a union to be very frustrating. I grew up on a midwest cattle ranch where if something needs done, you do it if you can.
Ive seen construction crews sitting for hours waiting for someone to do a simple task anyone could do. In my own opinion i feel that the union has outlived its cause. It is now a self perpetuating giant.
I personally wouldnt want my salary preset before im hired, and to be paid less than some joker who isnt as skilled but has been there longer. If you are unable to negotiate a good salary, you are either in the wrong field or arent worth it.
The unions have their place and have set some standards that would otherwise not have come to pass. But they are not for me.

Tony Warren
Nebraska

 

You Bet ! International Union of Operating Engineers !(local 115) . Darn good bunch of people . I know all to many stories of total BS working conditions from friends of mine , Unions keep the employer from being a tyrant . I`m also the Shop Steward there

I see there are a couple other Operating Engineers in this post . Good deal .


Waxy , I`ll tell what , the guys in my shop make 26 bucks an hour , no one sluffs off there . We all work very hard for the benefits and wages we get .




Jeff

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tw
[B] I personally wouldnt want my salary preset before im hired, and to be paid less than some joker who isnt as skilled but has been there longer. If you are unable to negotiate a good salary, you are either in the wrong field or arent worth it.

Ok, so what if you had some joker who gets paid more, even though you have been there longer. Just because he was able to sweet talk the boss a little, maybe, married to his daughter. He gets paid more, but, doesn't know anything about what he is doing. That's what the unions negociating wages has put to a stop. Equal pay for equal jobs. In our plant, the management team is upset right now, because the company hired in new managers, put them in lower positions, but, gave them higher pay and more vacation time than the managers who have been there for 20 years. As union workers, we don't have to worry about that.

Bluehawk

 

Let's face it, if someone has enough in him to make a boss lift an eyebrow, that shows that he is a company man. If he does enough not just to lift an eyebrow of the boss, but to court his daughter, then let's face it, there is nothing that can be done once FAMILY is in place.
Bottom line, HE'S THE MAN!

 

In a union shop, as a union worker, he walks in to the same amount of pay and benefits. Regardless if he is the boss' son-in-law or not. There is no special treatment given. It's in black and white.

Bluehawk