ethanol in gasoline
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Elder User
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 693
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From: Indiana
ethanol in gasoline
i've been told up to there is now 5% ethanol in gasoline. This causes problems in the older engines, but yet the newer engines, are designed to run on it. By the next few years, im told it may be 20% ethanol. I buy and run recreational gasoline which is 100% gas and run that in my small engines. Its 90 octane. Works well. How much of a problem does this new gas cause in the older engines, lets say 1990 and older. I use have used lucas, and seafoam fuel additives and they help with the lack of lubrication in the new gasoline. Whats your guys imput??
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,868
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From: Rhode Island
Don't worry about it. All gas is E-10 (10% Ethanol) not E-5. I run it in my Ranger, its been fine, I know plenty of people that run it in vehicles far older without any issues either.
I run it in my all original 1970 Cub Cadet, complete with the original 40 year old fuel line and carb gaskets. No problem at all. Also run it in my 1963 Generator with a 9HP Briggs. No issues. Also, Gas was never a lubricant. It is, and has always been a solvent. Hence why even before they started adding Ethanol to fuel if you accidentally put gas in your diesel vehicle, it was pretty much guaranteed to destroy the injectors and injection pump.
IMO, those gas additives are a waste of money. Unless you plan on storing gas for extended periods of time (3 months + ) don't bother. There are guys that will say that the "new" gas goes bad in a month. I stored my dirtbike with the E-10 fuel in the tank for about 6 months during the winter last year. Come spring it started right up second kick, and ran just fine. Those same people will also probably tell you it eats and destroys fuel components, such as aluminum carbs. Once again, my ancient tractor and generator have never had a single issue.
Maybe I'm just lucky?
I run it in my all original 1970 Cub Cadet, complete with the original 40 year old fuel line and carb gaskets. No problem at all. Also run it in my 1963 Generator with a 9HP Briggs. No issues. Also, Gas was never a lubricant. It is, and has always been a solvent. Hence why even before they started adding Ethanol to fuel if you accidentally put gas in your diesel vehicle, it was pretty much guaranteed to destroy the injectors and injection pump.
IMO, those gas additives are a waste of money. Unless you plan on storing gas for extended periods of time (3 months + ) don't bother. There are guys that will say that the "new" gas goes bad in a month. I stored my dirtbike with the E-10 fuel in the tank for about 6 months during the winter last year. Come spring it started right up second kick, and ran just fine. Those same people will also probably tell you it eats and destroys fuel components, such as aluminum carbs. Once again, my ancient tractor and generator have never had a single issue.
Maybe I'm just lucky?
Tuned
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
From: Raleigh
The marine industry has seen some issues with fiberglass fuel tanks and various fuel system parts in boats. The ethanol seems to be "eating" at the tanks and causing the fiberglass to separate. Some boat manufactures have even resorted to only installing metal tanks in their new boats. Also, ethanol blended fuels seem to be affecting the valve seats for boat engines due to the extreme operating conditions boat engines are subjected to. That's why most marinas only sell fuel with 0% ethanol and are not required to sell E10. At least in Missouri they're not required to sell it. It could be different in other states.
Now back on topic, there hasn't been a real concern for running it in vehicles.
Now back on topic, there hasn't been a real concern for running it in vehicles.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
I dont understand the valve seat claim. Other than the opinion of a marina owner, what is the reason? Unleaded fuel also was supposed to destroy old engines due to "valve recession". It never really became much of a problem. Our 283ci Chevy V-8's and LA block Mopars (273ci and 318ci) from the early 1960s were fine.
Pure gasoline is unavailable in California, all E10. Yes, fiberglass tanks are an issue. Due to the risk of phase separation at cold temperatures, aircraft certified to run on automotive gasoline should not run E10, so are forced to use leaded aviation gasoline. We tried to get BP to sell our airport straight gasoline and they refused, afraid of fines if the fuel found its way into road vehicles. Yet, they supply the 100LL, same legal issue. I cant imagine boat marinas can get straight gasoline here either.
Bottom line, I run a 1969 VW and ancient Briggs and Stratton small engines on 87 AKI E10 with absolutely no issues. The original intent of oxygenated fuel was to slightly lean out old fixed jet carbed engines. It works. They need a little extra choke to start, but run well when warmed up. Spark plugs are a nice tan color. I remember more black soot in the old days.
Jim
Pure gasoline is unavailable in California, all E10. Yes, fiberglass tanks are an issue. Due to the risk of phase separation at cold temperatures, aircraft certified to run on automotive gasoline should not run E10, so are forced to use leaded aviation gasoline. We tried to get BP to sell our airport straight gasoline and they refused, afraid of fines if the fuel found its way into road vehicles. Yet, they supply the 100LL, same legal issue. I cant imagine boat marinas can get straight gasoline here either.
Bottom line, I run a 1969 VW and ancient Briggs and Stratton small engines on 87 AKI E10 with absolutely no issues. The original intent of oxygenated fuel was to slightly lean out old fixed jet carbed engines. It works. They need a little extra choke to start, but run well when warmed up. Spark plugs are a nice tan color. I remember more black soot in the old days.
Jim
Tuned
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 292
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From: Raleigh
I believe the valve seat issues are due to the slightly higher combustion temps seen by E10 in boat engines which in some cases, not all, lead to premature wear of the seat itself. This may not be a trend, but I've observed this in boating mag articles and through talking with marine mechanics. Boat engines just have much more extreme operating conditions than vehicles (holding high rpms for a long durations with a high engine load and with little engine compartment ventilation). I haven't really heard any vapor lock issues with E10. I'm curious if E10 plays any role in vapor lock.
That's unfortunate you can't buy pure gasoline in CA. Pretty much every marina/gas dock i've been to in MO sells pure gasoline.
That's unfortunate you can't buy pure gasoline in CA. Pretty much every marina/gas dock i've been to in MO sells pure gasoline.
FTE Legend
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 53,990
Likes: 2,395
From: NY and VA
I found I get less fuel mileage with 10% (fed requirement??) Local fuel companies in NY had to replace seals in there tank trucks when they had to switch to 10%. If ethanol is supposed to cut down on emissions - what good does it really do when you have to use more?
New User
Joined: Feb 2010
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Well,last fall,my center console w/Mariner outboard started acting up.I called my boat mechanic buddy and HE told ME why I was calling.Said the E10 is breaking down fuel tanks,hoses and seals and clogging up injectors.West Marine is selling out of ~80 micron remote filter kits.
Installing my filter set-up tomorrow and rebuilding my injectors next weekend.
Installing my filter set-up tomorrow and rebuilding my injectors next weekend.
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Elder User
Joined: Sep 2009
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From: Indiana
thank you, thank you, that is my point. If we have to use more gas, what is the point if there are less emisions? The only way I found to fix some of these fuel problems is adding a lucas fuel additive or something like that. Other wise I get 90 octane recreation gas, which has no etanol even in it. Runs good in an old truck. Smells good too. I've heard we will see it get way worse maybe.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
I believe the valve seat issues are due to the slightly higher combustion temps seen by E10 in boat engines which in some cases, not all, lead to premature wear of the seat itself. This may not be a trend, but I've observed this in boating mag articles and through talking with marine mechanics. Boat engines just have much more extreme operating conditions than vehicles (holding high rpms for a long durations with a high engine load and with little engine compartment ventilation). I haven't really heard any vapor lock issues with E10. I'm curious if E10 plays any role in vapor lock.
That's unfortunate you can't buy pure gasoline in CA. Pretty much every marina/gas dock i've been to in MO sells pure gasoline.
That's unfortunate you can't buy pure gasoline in CA. Pretty much every marina/gas dock i've been to in MO sells pure gasoline.
Jim
Tuned
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 292
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From: Raleigh
Sounds like similar operating cycle as aircraft engines, which operate at full power for takeoff and climb and almost full power in cruise. Also they have tight cowlings. Still, boats have unlimited water cooling available, so cylinder head temps have to be much lower. As with aviation, magazine articles and many mechanics perpetuate myths, which turn out not to be true. "Leaner is hotter. Richer is cooler" is the worst one that has finally been proven wrong with fully instrumented aircraft engines. I doubt if anyone has put CHT and EGT probes on every cylinder of a marine engine and adjusted the mixtures real time to see what really happens.
Jim
Jim
CO River Rat
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,209
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From: Lake Havasu City AZ
The EPA is considering a proposal for E15, with a decision possibly by this summer. The corn-growing states are all for it, but I'm not sure a 50% increase in ethanol is a good idea without lots of testing; personally, I hope this is not OKed.
Steve
Steve
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Elder User
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 693
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From: Indiana
Yeah, I highly agree. Didn't hear about that one. Doesn't save on emissons if we get less miles per gallon on gasoline! Isn't E85 15% ethanol, and 85% gasoline? Thats just not good, because in a vehicle that is not designed to run E85, the mileage is reduced noticeable, even if it is a few cents cheeper per gallon. Its too bad. I might have to start buying more Recreational off road gas if this effects me as much as it sounds!
CO River Rat
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,209
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From: Lake Havasu City AZ
No, E85 has 85% ethanol which is supposed to run fine in Flex Fuel vehicles like my wife's Fusion. I say "supposed to" 'cause I'm planning on never using it. The EPA took comments last year on E15 (I voted against it), but I don't know how many $$$ the corn-belt states are willing to spend to pass this; probably lots. If it passes without further testing I think the EPA is in for a firestorm of complaints.
Steve
Steve
FTE Legend
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 53,990
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From: NY and VA
Just wrote to the EPA doubt if it will do any good. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency lots of regulations on the site - scary.
