Toploader problem
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Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: SoCal
Toploader problem
Hi Folks,
First time poster on this forum seeking experience and wisdom.
I have a 4 speed "top loader" that had a problem where the shift kept slipping out of first gear under load. I opened it up to find that the spring for the detent plug for the 1-2 shift rail had broken. I replaced it with a Ford part, and now it has s slightly different problem. When the car is cold, it is almost impossible to shift into first gear when the car is moving. It has to come to a full stop before I can get it into first gear. The problem goes away once the car warms up, so I'm guessing the gear lube is also warmed up. I'm using Mobil 1 75w90 gear lube right now. Has anyone ever encountered this problem before? Should I use friction modifier with the gear lube?
First time poster on this forum seeking experience and wisdom.
I have a 4 speed "top loader" that had a problem where the shift kept slipping out of first gear under load. I opened it up to find that the spring for the detent plug for the 1-2 shift rail had broken. I replaced it with a Ford part, and now it has s slightly different problem. When the car is cold, it is almost impossible to shift into first gear when the car is moving. It has to come to a full stop before I can get it into first gear. The problem goes away once the car warms up, so I'm guessing the gear lube is also warmed up. I'm using Mobil 1 75w90 gear lube right now. Has anyone ever encountered this problem before? Should I use friction modifier with the gear lube?
Ford Parts Specialist
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 88,826
Likes: 787
From: Simi Valley, CA
Hi Folks,
First time poster on this forum seeking experience and wisdom.
I have a 4 speed "top loader" that had a problem where the shift kept slipping out of first gear under load. I opened it up to find that the spring for the detent plug for the 1-2 shift rail had broken. I replaced it with a Ford part, and now it has s slightly different problem. When the car is cold, it is almost impossible to shift into first gear when the car is moving. It has to come to a full stop before I can get it into first gear. The problem goes away once the car warms up, so I'm guessing the gear lube is also warmed up. I'm using Mobil 1 75w90 gear lube right now. Has anyone ever encountered this problem before? Should I use friction modifier with the gear lube?
First time poster on this forum seeking experience and wisdom.
I have a 4 speed "top loader" that had a problem where the shift kept slipping out of first gear under load. I opened it up to find that the spring for the detent plug for the 1-2 shift rail had broken. I replaced it with a Ford part, and now it has s slightly different problem. When the car is cold, it is almost impossible to shift into first gear when the car is moving. It has to come to a full stop before I can get it into first gear. The problem goes away once the car warms up, so I'm guessing the gear lube is also warmed up. I'm using Mobil 1 75w90 gear lube right now. Has anyone ever encountered this problem before? Should I use friction modifier with the gear lube?
Is this the 4 speed top loader that was only used in cars, or the Ford TS-OD 4 speed single rail overdrive used in cars & trucks?
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Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,015
Likes: 208
From: SoCal
Hi Bill,
Good to hear from you again.
I'm not sure how to identify this transmission. It was butchered into my 1969 Mustang by a previous owner. Its reverse lever has a two sides to it. I'm guessing one side is for an ignition switch lock-out, so the transmission must be newer than 60's; I'm guessing 70's. I'll have to look for an ID somewhere.
Good to hear from you again.
I'm not sure how to identify this transmission. It was butchered into my 1969 Mustang by a previous owner. Its reverse lever has a two sides to it. I'm guessing one side is for an ignition switch lock-out, so the transmission must be newer than 60's; I'm guessing 70's. I'll have to look for an ID somewhere.
Ford Parts Specialist
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 88,826
Likes: 787
From: Simi Valley, CA
I'm not sure how to identify this transmission. It was butchered into my 1969 Mustang by a previous owner. Its reverse lever has a two sides to it. I'm guessing one side is for an ignition switch lock-out, so the transmission must be newer than 60's; I'm guessing 70's. I'll have to look for an ID somewhere.
If on the tailshaft, this is either a RUG or RTS TS-OD (aka SROD) single rail 4 speed overdrive. Both were based on the Ford Type 3.03 3 speed manual trans.
Some of the shift levers used on these trans' are two pieces, upper and lower.
The RUG was used in 1977/82 passenger cars, Bronco's, E100/150's and F100/150's.
The RTS was introduced in 1983, was not used in passenger cars.
Both of these transmissions are "weak sisters." The RUG was originally engineered for 200/250/302 Granada's, 200/302 Fairmont/Zephyr's.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,015
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From: SoCal
It is an externally shifted transmission; the shifter is some aftermarket thing, looks sort of like an old Hurst, though it does not say that anywhere, bolted to 3 holes on the driver's side of the tail shaft. The linkages run forward to the 3 levers on the side of the case. So it's much older than the SROD types.
There is no grinding; it just refuses to go into first while moving, until it's warmed up, or fully stopped. I've tried double-clutching, but that didn't help. However, if I feather up the clutch and try to rpm-match and try to shift at the same time, it does go in, with a grind. I don't want to do that.
There is no grinding; it just refuses to go into first while moving, until it's warmed up, or fully stopped. I've tried double-clutching, but that didn't help. However, if I feather up the clutch and try to rpm-match and try to shift at the same time, it does go in, with a grind. I don't want to do that.
Super Moderator
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So it's not OD in 4th, with a big gap 2nd to 3rd?
FWIW, almost everything I've ever driven, including my '09, was hard to downshift into first at any speed. Can you hear the synchros spin up when you try to engage it?
At least it goes in when warm. What weight oil are you running? Maybe a synthetic would work better...???
FWIW, almost everything I've ever driven, including my '09, was hard to downshift into first at any speed. Can you hear the synchros spin up when you try to engage it?
At least it goes in when warm. What weight oil are you running? Maybe a synthetic would work better...???
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Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: SoCal
It's an old 4 speed, with 1:1 4th. I think the rest are: 2.95:1, 2.0:1, 1.5:1. Too old to have overdrive. The rest of the car is too noisy to really hear the synchros, so I don't know if they are trying to spin up when I'm trying to jam into first. I'm currently using 75w90 Mobil-1 synthetic gear lube right now, but it has behaved this way with regular 75w90 gear lube as well, after I replaced the broken detent spring.
I'm wondering if the 1st gear synchro is wearing out?
I'm wondering if the 1st gear synchro is wearing out?
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I had one in my '65 Mustang. Don't recall the first gear situation, but I sold old Henry in '81, so it's been a while. I do recall it was a great shifting trans, and the ratios were good for my Mustang. The ratios are different that what you posted, and can be found at these sites. These guys sell parts and whole transmissions. First is 2.78 or 2.32 btw.
David Kee Toploader Transmissions, Inc.
More of the same, only different...
Toploader 4 Speed Transmissions
I think if the first gear synchro were going, you'd get grinding instead of resistance. And it wouldn't change when warmed up.
David Kee Toploader Transmissions, Inc.
More of the same, only different...
Toploader 4 Speed Transmissions
I think if the first gear synchro were going, you'd get grinding instead of resistance. And it wouldn't change when warmed up.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,015
Likes: 208
From: SoCal
Thanks for the links mtod; I was guessing at the ratios. My transmission looks like the very last one in the first picture on this page:
Remanufactured Toploaders
It has the 3 shifter mounting holes near the end of the tail housing. It shifted smoothly before I replaced the broken detent spring, but then, it would also pop out of first under load. It occurs to me that once when I was driving it while it was still cold, I was "racing" a friend with a similar car up a freeway on-ramp. I lost when I missed 3rd gear, because it would not allow me to shift into it. The problem wasn't nearly as bad as with first gear, and also went away once it warmed up. So I'm wondering if there is some goop I should be adding to the gear lube? Kind of the opposite of the standard friction modifier that you normally put into limited slip differentials?
Remanufactured Toploaders
It has the 3 shifter mounting holes near the end of the tail housing. It shifted smoothly before I replaced the broken detent spring, but then, it would also pop out of first under load. It occurs to me that once when I was driving it while it was still cold, I was "racing" a friend with a similar car up a freeway on-ramp. I lost when I missed 3rd gear, because it would not allow me to shift into it. The problem wasn't nearly as bad as with first gear, and also went away once it warmed up. So I'm wondering if there is some goop I should be adding to the gear lube? Kind of the opposite of the standard friction modifier that you normally put into limited slip differentials?
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