hi there, I have 54 ford f100 with a 223 with a T87d transmission behind it. I've learned to love the 3 on the tree shifter. Now I've decided that if at all possible I'd like to swap a T85n behind it instead of the t87d. Now I don't know how available they are, but it sounds like you see one every once in awhile at swap meets. I was wondering if that transmission would bolt directly behind my 223. Then if there are troubles because of variations of the t85n as far as spline count or shaft length and what not if I could look for one with the correct dimensions and what that would be.
Sorry for being so wordy, all help would be appreciated.

 

Hi and Welcome to FTE.

By T87D do you mean the stock Ford 3 speed light duty transmission? And by T85N do you mean the stock Ford 3 speed light duty transmission with the Borg Warner R-10 overdrive unit attached?

If you do then they should bolt right up bell housing wise if you get an OD transmission withthe same input shaft length and spline count. If the spline count is different then just get a clutch plate to match.

BUT, your 3 speed transmission may not have the long tail cone and yo uwill have to change out your transmission crossmember and support to do the conversion.

I think you'd have more luck switching out your rear end to a 9" with a higher gear ratio - about 3.25 to 3.0.

 

I don't know if this will help, but it will give you plenty of posts to read.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/5...s-w-223-a.html

 

Julie, when I say T87D that refers to the heavy duty three speed ford made for the 53-55 ford trucks the fact that it was made by borg warner or ford makes no difference really i guess from what i've read. It has no overdrive in the back. just a plain old 3 speed. Then when I say T85n I am referring to a transmission made borg warner that has a R11 overdrive unit on the back of it. I think the T85n refers to this combination of the 3 speed gearbox with an overdrive unit in the back. If you look up T-85n you will find it sounds like a great little unit, smooth and almost acts like a automatic in town just staying in 2nd then an almost automatic kick up to 2nd overdrive. From what I've read they made these things for many makes of cars, so with that fact I'm wondering if there are small variations in these things to mount up to all these cars.

 

quote=SJR Enterprises;8434059]Julie, when I say T87D that refers to the heavy duty three speed ford made for the 53-55 ford trucks the fact that it was made by borg warner or ford makes no difference really i guess from what i've read. It has no overdrive in the back. just a plain old 3 speed. Then when I say T85n I am referring to a transmission made borg warner that has a R11 overdrive unit on the back of it. I think the T85n refers to this combination of the 3 speed gearbox with an overdrive unit in the back. If you look up T-85n you will find it sounds like a great little unit, smooth and almost acts like a automatic in town just staying in 2nd then an almost automatic kick up to 2nd overdrive. From what I've read they made these things for many makes of cars, so with that fact I'm wondering if there are small variations in these things to mount up to all these cars.[/quote]

I disagree. The fact that the transmission might have been made by Ford and not Borg Warner opens the distinct possibility that they are not the same transmissions from a spec or characteristics standpoint.

I'm very familiar with the overdrive transmissions used in Ford and there vehicles.

However it does make a difference if you are looking for specifications whether the transmission was made by Ford or BW. And I would challange you to provide a published cross reference list that shows that the "Ford 3 Speed Heavy Duty Transmission" used in the 53-55 is in fact a Borg Warner T-87D. Could very well be - please prove it. And I don't say that to be antagonistic, but we've had tons of discussions here about transmission interchangeability and they all end up the same: No one can positively ascertain if the configuration (ie input shaft length and diameter, spline count, etc) of the Ford Transmissions is the same as the Borg Warner - despite the fact that the transmissions were "Warner Gear" transmissions.

Also, the Overdrive unit used in the 53 to 55 trucks was an R10 - three planetary gear as opposed to the stronger 4 gear R11. The R10 unit was used on Fords through at least 1966 as far as my documentation shows.

So, my point is that if you have what you know is definately a Borg Warner T-87D, and you know the one you are going to buy is definately a T-85N, and you definately know that the front faces of the transmission are the same (bolt hole spacing and pattern) the input shaft is the same length on both, and the input shaft diameter is the same on both, then you've answered your own question - yes it will fit. But as I mentioned, your transmission cross member or mount will probably have to be moved aft irregardless.

The problem lies in the fact that there is little to NO documentation which emperically states that the 1955 Ford Heavy Duty 3 Speed Transmission is in fact a Borg Warner T-87D, and thus there is no reliable cross reference that states emparically that the characteristics I just mentioned, ARE in fact exactly the same. If you have one, I'd like to see it and have a copy.

My suggestion would be to ascertain the characteristics of whatever transmission you have and ensure that whatever you buy to put on it has the same characteristics. As far as being able to have someone simply say "yes this is the same as that" I doubt anyone can say that I have seen - thus far.

Edit note: Again I know this sounds a little snippy and it isn't meant to be. But in the course of the discussions we have had, there has been a lot of "casual" reference to "this transmission actually being that," etc. Fact is, that with that being the case, we have found more exceptions in comparing the transmissions than commonality. It's generated a lot of discussion and problems for folks trying to install overdrive transmission in place of standards. I have asked our most brilliant parts guy to provide or derive a positive cross reference list of these overdrive transmissions to no avail. So my tone is one of "impatiently motivated anticipation" to see the facts, it's not meant as criticism.

Good luck,

 

I see your point there, but I also see that I've begun to be unclear on what I'm asking. I'm sorry for getting into the fight on who made what, thats not what I'm meaning to do here. I went back and read a similar thread from awhile back and see what your saying, they concluded that if I want an overdrive transmission combo to go onto my 223 it should have the ford name. Now let me restate and clarify my questions.
What I know is that I have is a Ford 223 with a T87D transmission behind it, made by whoever the heck made it in 1954.
What I want to know is how a T85n transmission mount in place of my current transmission, whats the feasability of this. It doesn't need to be done in the near future just liked the features of this transmission and if i could keep my eyes open for this if i find that it would work.( Also something I don't know is if there are differences in shaft length and spline count and what I would need to fit into my current bellhousing)---Now I suppose all I would need to to answer that question is to remove my current one and find a T85n with the same shaft length and spline count, if there is such a thing I don't know.
Now I'm sorry for sounding like a bit of a know it all before, thats not what I meant to do. I'm asking for the expertise of you guys so I can sort this all out maybe without even having to drop my current transmission, just having you guys look into your resources.
I hope that helps to clarify things.

 

Oh no fight or intimidation intended. I simply would like to find out the facts about these transmissions. Thsi subject comes up almost weekly! If we could cross reference the Ford designations to the BW designations, these questions about intechangeability would be simple.

But unfortunately, we can't seem to nail it down - and your question has been asked, discussed, debated and dropped dead a good number of times.

Actually, I was hoping you could finally provide an answer to these questions - you sound like you know as much about it as anyone!

So again I guess the questions are: do the T87 and T85 share the same bolt mounting geometry, is the input shaft length and diameter the same (number of splines can be adjusted with different clutch plates I believe) and if not, what bell housing do you need to switch to put on your engine to accomodate the T-85 (that is the right depth and has the right bolt geometry if they are not the same - sound logical.

And the answer is - we don't know for sure. At least I don't and if someone else does, I'd love to see the source on the info.

You will need to provide a transmission support farther aft than you have now, and have the driveshaft shortened.

You realize of course that you will need to find the four electrical components that go withthe transmission as well. Normally two of them - the Governor and the Solenoid are bolted to the transmission. The kickdown switch is available on e-bay, and I believe NAPA still carries the Relays. The solenoids and relays are voltage sensative, so you wil need 6 volt units if your electrical system is still 6 volt, or yo will need 12 volt if you have converted. Make sure you can get 12 volt solenoids and relays BEFORE you buy your transmission.

PS. You're pretty definate that you have a Borg Warner T87D on your truck....How do you know that's what it is?