Dodge RAM in 2011
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,101
Likes: 40
From: Pa
all i can say on the topic is wach out ford. i have looked at a new 2011 ram heavy duty and it is a masterpeice, ford does not build a superduty that compares and gm never will.. a new 3500 dodge with a cummin's is all the truck and alott more, i only hope the next superduty can out do them and hopefully ford gets a deisal that aint such a peice of ****. the currant deisal and the older 6.0 was a totale p.o.s, and it will take a long time untill i have faith in another ford deisal, from what i heard they are dropping international as there deisal manufacturer so that good....
BTW Toyota is one of the the reasons Ford, GM and Dodge are not putting out the junk that they did in the 80s, 90s and early 2000's. The big 2.5 basically competed with only eachother for years and you saw how that turned out, lots of junk vehicles produced.
Just a little information for you, my F250 was built in mexico.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: PA
U are correct on that. The only problem isthat ford does not currently make a vehicle which I would want, so what should I really do if I needed a new truck?
Last edited by 92f150I6; Mar 10, 2010 at 10:49 PM. Reason: spelling
Elder User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
From: Denver USA
Let me start off by saying, I love a stick. Had one in my first 3 trucks. All my trucks since then haven't been offerred with a stick. So I do wish my '06 F150 5.4L had a 5spd or 6spd manual.
But like many have stated, in the end, it all comes down to the mighty dollar. Ford has researched and found using various analysis, that selling a manual just isn't a wise business practice.
First off, you have the cost of manufacturing or purchasing a manual from a vendor. Secondly, you have the cost of R&D for integrating the manual into the truck, mechanically, electronically and physically. Third, you have to have the clientel wanting to purchase a manual. Problem is, the overwhelming customer base are looking for an auto. So in that case, you will have to either increase the cost of all manual trucks to offset the increased cost of the manual, or you'll have to increase the cost of all trucks across the board to offset the cost. And people are already complaining about the MSRP trucks today. Asking for a manual for such a small population of customers simply would increase the manufacturers costs from beginning to end, which we all know is passed onto the consumer.
Plus they've been able to make auto's much more stout these days and program in torque management software. This reduces the manufacturers warrenty repairs. With a manual, you can't implement this torque management, so even if the manual is just as stout as the auto, you may see more warranty repairs on a manual due to the drivers putting to much power through the tranny.
And of course, in the end, it is more costly to repair or replace and auto. So the manufacturer sees this as $$$ down the road if/when the tranny does fail.
So in every aspect, it all comes down to dollar and cents.
It doesn't need to make sense to you. It just needs to make good financial and business sense to the manufacturer. They are going to go with the option that best fits the majority of they customers.
Yes it is cheaper to build a manual than auto. But you also have to weigh in the cost of producing both tranny's and whether you'll make your money back by offerring both. I'm sure Ford has done their fair share of market research and have determined the current route is the best option, no matter how much you or I like or dislike their move.
+1
+1
So add in the additional cost of producing 2 trans, which include a manual that doesn't sell well, and you're upping the cost even more.
But like many have stated, in the end, it all comes down to the mighty dollar. Ford has researched and found using various analysis, that selling a manual just isn't a wise business practice.
First off, you have the cost of manufacturing or purchasing a manual from a vendor. Secondly, you have the cost of R&D for integrating the manual into the truck, mechanically, electronically and physically. Third, you have to have the clientel wanting to purchase a manual. Problem is, the overwhelming customer base are looking for an auto. So in that case, you will have to either increase the cost of all manual trucks to offset the increased cost of the manual, or you'll have to increase the cost of all trucks across the board to offset the cost. And people are already complaining about the MSRP trucks today. Asking for a manual for such a small population of customers simply would increase the manufacturers costs from beginning to end, which we all know is passed onto the consumer.
Plus they've been able to make auto's much more stout these days and program in torque management software. This reduces the manufacturers warrenty repairs. With a manual, you can't implement this torque management, so even if the manual is just as stout as the auto, you may see more warranty repairs on a manual due to the drivers putting to much power through the tranny.
And of course, in the end, it is more costly to repair or replace and auto. So the manufacturer sees this as $$$ down the road if/when the tranny does fail.
So in every aspect, it all comes down to dollar and cents.
Just makes no sense to me not to offer the option of a manual transmission, and no amount of speculation as to why the manufacturers are heading in this direction is ever going to convince me that it makes sense to not to continue offering them.
So far as cost, it is ridiculously cheaper to build a strong manual as opposed to building a strong automatic, and I would bet that Ford could purchase two six speeds outsourced from ZF for cheaper than it costs them to manufacture one Torqushift in-house. There's a reason you pay the extra money for the auto.
So far as cost, it is ridiculously cheaper to build a strong manual as opposed to building a strong automatic, and I would bet that Ford could purchase two six speeds outsourced from ZF for cheaper than it costs them to manufacture one Torqushift in-house. There's a reason you pay the extra money for the auto.
Yes it is cheaper to build a manual than auto. But you also have to weigh in the cost of producing both tranny's and whether you'll make your money back by offerring both. I'm sure Ford has done their fair share of market research and have determined the current route is the best option, no matter how much you or I like or dislike their move.
While it does stink that no manual will be available for those that want it, in any vehicle of any description, the fact is that the sales volumes for manual transmissions are just not there anymore.
Customers have spoken, and it seems that Ford, GM, and Toyota have discovered that the vast majority of people buying new 1/2 ton or larger trucks just don't buy them with a manual tranny anymore.
For a manufacturer it is easier and cheaper to offer only one transmission option anyway. The cost of development is reduced, the cost of carrying extra parts for the plants is reduced, tooling costs are reduced, and the overall supply chain is greatly simplified.
Customers have spoken, and it seems that Ford, GM, and Toyota have discovered that the vast majority of people buying new 1/2 ton or larger trucks just don't buy them with a manual tranny anymore.
For a manufacturer it is easier and cheaper to offer only one transmission option anyway. The cost of development is reduced, the cost of carrying extra parts for the plants is reduced, tooling costs are reduced, and the overall supply chain is greatly simplified.
For a lot of years Fords MSRP prices have been lower than comparable Dodge or GM models. The cost increase is not completely the manufacturers fault. The goverment keeps mandating things on vehicles that adds to the cost. Then on top of that theres inflating costs of materials, labor, overhead in general and etc.
So add in the additional cost of producing 2 trans, which include a manual that doesn't sell well, and you're upping the cost even more.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: PA
V8EXPLR: i will say that you are absolutely correct. They are looking at the costs of producing the truck with 2 different transmissions. I personally would be willing to spend an extra $1000- $1500 to get a manual trans. I did when I purchased my Challenger. The real question is, would there be enough takers to justify the option.
I will say that I absolutely hate automatic transmissions, and unfortunately my truck has one because no manual transmissions were available at the time. This manu-matic crap still doesnt give me a good ole clutch pedal and shifter, and is more of an annoyance.
I will say that I absolutely hate automatic transmissions, and unfortunately my truck has one because no manual transmissions were available at the time. This manu-matic crap still doesnt give me a good ole clutch pedal and shifter, and is more of an annoyance.
Elder User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
From: Denver USA
V8EXPLR: i will say that you are absolutely correct. They are looking at the costs of producing the truck with 2 different transmissions. I personally would be willing to spend an extra $1000- $1500 to get a manual trans. I did when I purchased my Challenger. The real question is, would there be enough takers to justify the option.
I will say that I absolutely hate automatic transmissions, and unfortunately my truck has one because no manual transmissions were available at the time. This manu-matic crap still doesnt give me a good ole clutch pedal and shifter, and is more of an annoyance.
I will say that I absolutely hate automatic transmissions, and unfortunately my truck has one because no manual transmissions were available at the time. This manu-matic crap still doesnt give me a good ole clutch pedal and shifter, and is more of an annoyance.
Now in my father-in-laws '10 Taurus, the paddle shifters are nice, but still doesn't give entire feeling that a true manual does.
New User
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Amen - 100% !!!
Title pretty much says it all.... here's why...
MANUAL TRANSMISSION...
I havent been on these boards in a long time, and well, I just decided to go checking out some info on the upcoming 2011 Super Duty, and was disgusted to see that FORD is dropping the ZF 6speed in 2011.. I had to go check other sources to verify this, because it seems so absolutely unbelievable to me that FORD would be so arrogant and disrespectful to do something so ridiculous as to divorce the Super Duty from the most masculine feature any pick up truck can possibly have.
The huge head lights were a turn off I could live with.. The untried diesel too.. But no manual transmission option? What are they thinking?
It's not even a new truck - all the body panels could be switched out, and you'd have a 99 if you wanted..
So let me see.. No real redesign.. Pokemon headlights.. Yet again another untried / unproven engine.. AND NO MANUAL TRANSMISSION OPTION?..
What exactly is supposed to be so exciting again?
Man what a bummer..
Everyone knows that the GM trucks lost their ***** option a few years ago, but never thought FORD would do the same thing in dropping the manual transmission..
Okay, to each his own, but nothing says ***** like seeing that big shifter coming out of the floor board, and nothing says brains, like seeing the third pedal, which means it's a truck made for someone who CAN walk and chew gum at the same time..
You can lift a truck, put fat tires on it, supercharge it, lower it, paint flames from hell on it, whatever, but nothing you can do to it will ever give it the testosterone that a manual transmission does - period. When you see that big gear shifter - you KNOW it's a truck - not a mini van.
So anyway, for chits n giggles, I checked out the upcoming Ram trucks - 2011's.. And while Dodge has castrated most of their trucks as well, when it comes to the Cummins trucks - lo' and behold - the 6 speed is there!
Gotta tell you guys, that new HD Ram out now, is tied with the current Super Duty for THE best looking truck out there IMO. Whats more, Dodge sells alot more manual transmission trucks for one simple fact - dealers ACTUALLY carry them on their lots!
Dodge actually gives their 6 speed more than a footnote followed by a book about the automatic in their brochure. They brag it up - lowest granny gear for better loaded launches, etc... Come 2011, they''ll also be able to brag about being the only company to still offer a manual transmission for serious haulers who work their trucks hard every day.. imagine that..
Listen guys, I'm a truck guy - not a brand guy, and I know what dosen't work for me, is an arrogant company taking away the ONE option I have to have, while still offering a plethora of silly options few people order, and which are even less cost effective to the company's bottom line.
I mean think about it, would any of you guys pick a Ford Fiesta or mini van to drive over a 2011 Dodge RAM CTD? I mean brand loyalty only goes so far right?
I predict Dodge is going to pick up alot of sales they would not have otherwise, and I hope they do, because if so, it might just be enough to cause Ford to rethink this decision..
Fire away..
MANUAL TRANSMISSION...
I havent been on these boards in a long time, and well, I just decided to go checking out some info on the upcoming 2011 Super Duty, and was disgusted to see that FORD is dropping the ZF 6speed in 2011.. I had to go check other sources to verify this, because it seems so absolutely unbelievable to me that FORD would be so arrogant and disrespectful to do something so ridiculous as to divorce the Super Duty from the most masculine feature any pick up truck can possibly have.
The huge head lights were a turn off I could live with.. The untried diesel too.. But no manual transmission option? What are they thinking?
It's not even a new truck - all the body panels could be switched out, and you'd have a 99 if you wanted..
So let me see.. No real redesign.. Pokemon headlights.. Yet again another untried / unproven engine.. AND NO MANUAL TRANSMISSION OPTION?..
What exactly is supposed to be so exciting again?
Man what a bummer..
Everyone knows that the GM trucks lost their ***** option a few years ago, but never thought FORD would do the same thing in dropping the manual transmission..
Okay, to each his own, but nothing says ***** like seeing that big shifter coming out of the floor board, and nothing says brains, like seeing the third pedal, which means it's a truck made for someone who CAN walk and chew gum at the same time..
You can lift a truck, put fat tires on it, supercharge it, lower it, paint flames from hell on it, whatever, but nothing you can do to it will ever give it the testosterone that a manual transmission does - period. When you see that big gear shifter - you KNOW it's a truck - not a mini van.
So anyway, for chits n giggles, I checked out the upcoming Ram trucks - 2011's.. And while Dodge has castrated most of their trucks as well, when it comes to the Cummins trucks - lo' and behold - the 6 speed is there!
Gotta tell you guys, that new HD Ram out now, is tied with the current Super Duty for THE best looking truck out there IMO. Whats more, Dodge sells alot more manual transmission trucks for one simple fact - dealers ACTUALLY carry them on their lots!
Dodge actually gives their 6 speed more than a footnote followed by a book about the automatic in their brochure. They brag it up - lowest granny gear for better loaded launches, etc... Come 2011, they''ll also be able to brag about being the only company to still offer a manual transmission for serious haulers who work their trucks hard every day.. imagine that..
Listen guys, I'm a truck guy - not a brand guy, and I know what dosen't work for me, is an arrogant company taking away the ONE option I have to have, while still offering a plethora of silly options few people order, and which are even less cost effective to the company's bottom line.
I mean think about it, would any of you guys pick a Ford Fiesta or mini van to drive over a 2011 Dodge RAM CTD? I mean brand loyalty only goes so far right?
I predict Dodge is going to pick up alot of sales they would not have otherwise, and I hope they do, because if so, it might just be enough to cause Ford to rethink this decision..
Fire away..
I read this 5 times and agree 10,000 % with every single word you said.
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 2
From: Chino Hills
I had a 2007 GMC Sierra for awhile which was ok, but when I started looking at all the money to make it what I wanted I could of just built my own truck.
So now I got my 66 F100, and I don't have to worry about what some beard scratching bean counter says.
I know its not a Diesel nor will it be HD, but it follows the same model. They don't make cars for enthusiasts. So I don't see me buying a new car/truck again as long as I can find suitable vehicles around.
Also why does every truck have to be Heavy Duty these days. Thats what 3/4 tons are for. I need to go the Home Depot, not a 10K towing capacity, and a 1500+ bed capacity.
So now I got my 66 F100, and I don't have to worry about what some beard scratching bean counter says.
I know its not a Diesel nor will it be HD, but it follows the same model. They don't make cars for enthusiasts. So I don't see me buying a new car/truck again as long as I can find suitable vehicles around.
Also why does every truck have to be Heavy Duty these days. Thats what 3/4 tons are for. I need to go the Home Depot, not a 10K towing capacity, and a 1500+ bed capacity.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
Alan has done a lot of good for Ford, but too much "simplifying", meaning concentrating only on what will sell in huge quantities, is going to turn away a certain percentage of buyers. He is sort of like old Henry Ford in that respect.
Dropping the idea of a new F-100 is what I mean in this context. Unfortunately, it would have not resembled a 1966 F-100 in form or function much at all, but was going to be a bigger Ranger replacement, as I understand it.
Dropping the idea of a new F-100 is what I mean in this context. Unfortunately, it would have not resembled a 1966 F-100 in form or function much at all, but was going to be a bigger Ranger replacement, as I understand it.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 2
Chevy doesn't offer the stick either. I just sold my 03 F450 with the 6 speed, and won't miss it. The only reason I bought it with a manual is that it was cheap (used). Ford canceled the manuals because so few people order them anymore. The automatics are better than ever now. Ford is not going to do all the design work to please 5% of the people. Probably 2/3's of the manual buyers would probably give in and buy the auto. The other 1.5% of Ford manual buyers who won't budge will just have to buy a Dodge. I would've ordered the auto in the new truck anyway....
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
Uh, 5% of 500,000 units (F-series typical annual sales) is 25,000, more than the entire annual run of many, many vehicles. That is plenty of scale, multiplied by a several year run, to justify a manual transmission option.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: Spokane, Wa.
With all the good USED trucks out there, why not save thousands of $$$$$$ and let the new truck buyers take the depreciation hit?
You could still get your manual tranny,and it would still be a Ford, and you would be able to put 200,00 more miles on it.....cuz as you know there is a significant amount of buyers who must have new vehicles and trade-in perfectly good trucks in with alot of miles left in them.....
Then after a few years perhaps Ford will see the error of their ways and reintroduce the manuals thereby allowing you to buy a new manual again....
I just don't get why everyone seems to think they need to spend $50,000 on a new truck, with so many good, well-cared-for used trucks available....
Let the lawyer or banker take the depreciation hit.....when he or she gets tired of it they will trade it in anyway after a year or two....
You could still get your manual tranny,and it would still be a Ford, and you would be able to put 200,00 more miles on it.....cuz as you know there is a significant amount of buyers who must have new vehicles and trade-in perfectly good trucks in with alot of miles left in them.....
Then after a few years perhaps Ford will see the error of their ways and reintroduce the manuals thereby allowing you to buy a new manual again....
I just don't get why everyone seems to think they need to spend $50,000 on a new truck, with so many good, well-cared-for used trucks available....
Let the lawyer or banker take the depreciation hit.....when he or she gets tired of it they will trade it in anyway after a year or two....
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
With all the good USED trucks out there, why not save thousands of $$$$$$ and let the new truck buyers take the depreciation hit?
You could still get your manual tranny,and it would still be a Ford, and you would be able to put 200,00 more miles on it.....cuz as you know there is a significant amount of buyers who must have new vehicles and trade-in perfectly good trucks in with alot of miles left in them.....
I just don't get why everyone seems to think they need to spend $50,000 on a new truck, with so many good, well-cared-for used trucks available....
You could still get your manual tranny,and it would still be a Ford, and you would be able to put 200,00 more miles on it.....cuz as you know there is a significant amount of buyers who must have new vehicles and trade-in perfectly good trucks in with alot of miles left in them.....
I just don't get why everyone seems to think they need to spend $50,000 on a new truck, with so many good, well-cared-for used trucks available....
If everyone bought used, Ford would go out of business and the US would eventually look like Cuba, so we still need new trucks manufactured in the configuration and options we want. In ten years, where are you going to find that used Ford truck with a manual transmission if they dont build any for the next decade?
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: Spokane, Wa.
I spend more like half that on a new truck. Most of the used ones out there (at least in this market) are run-out junk or priced so close to new as to invalidate your argument. In other areas of the country, rust takes care of it.
If everyone bought used, Ford would go out of business and the US would eventually look like Cuba, so we still need new trucks manufactured in the configuration and options we want. In ten years, where are you going to find that used Ford truck with a manual transmission if they dont build any for the next decade?
If everyone bought used, Ford would go out of business and the US would eventually look like Cuba, so we still need new trucks manufactured in the configuration and options we want. In ten years, where are you going to find that used Ford truck with a manual transmission if they dont build any for the next decade?
You've made my point for me......and you conveniently left-out 2 key lines in my original post....
"most of the ones out there" is not all of the ones out there. If a guy knows his stuff he will be able to find the good deals on quality used manuals....I've seen 4or 5 just in the last couple days on craigslist for our area.....
You can take the depreciation hit for me. I'll wait and buy your used one for thousands less,pay in cash, and not worry about paying on the interest the first 24 months on a 60 or 72 mo. loan....
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
I am in the position to pay cash, so that does not apply to me. Again, when there are few or no manual transmission trucks sold in a given market, the used supply is almost non-existent. Those of us that buy new for keeps dont trade every few years, and we are the ones that take care of our trucks. The idea that you cant go down to a dealer and get what you want is the issue. Im not going to ebay and fly accross state liines just in order to buy a truck. If you think that is worth it, fine, go for it. My latest truck is a regular cab 4x4. Try and find that combo used in the Southern California area, late model in excellent condition and at a price significantly below new in order to justify the mileage, wear, and risk of a used vehicle.
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,176
Likes: 4
From: Western Central NV
The sad truth is I would guess 90% of the HD Pickup truck out there never work. They pull a trailer a few times a year. I remember living in Northern Nevada & the walmart parking lot was full of HD pickups diesel powered, 4 door 4x4 that never saw a dirt roads or hauled anything in the bed but groceries.
The only thing I can say is GMC has the only time tested heavy duty automatic. It is hard to ague (except here) that Allison has been making heavy duty truck automatics for years. If I was to buy a new truck & all I could get was an automatic then that would be a big selling point with me. Like Dodge GMC only has two generations of diesel engines in modern time (GMC Duramax two generations, & Cummins 5.9 & 6.7)
Craig
The only thing I can say is GMC has the only time tested heavy duty automatic. It is hard to ague (except here) that Allison has been making heavy duty truck automatics for years. If I was to buy a new truck & all I could get was an automatic then that would be a big selling point with me. Like Dodge GMC only has two generations of diesel engines in modern time (GMC Duramax two generations, & Cummins 5.9 & 6.7)
Craig