Diesel Exhaust Fluid Alternative
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Post Fiend
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Diesel Exhaust Fluid Alternative
Honda developed a system that basically makes its own DEF in real time:
Does anyone know why Ford did not go this route?
Honda's Green (Diesel) Machine
Honda's engines have a catalytic converter that filters out enough nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions to meet California's new standards -- the most stringent in the nation -- due to come into effect in the state next year and nationwide in 2009. Unlike other diesels that will meet California's standards, such as a Mercedes-Benz (DCX ) BlueTec expected to go on sale in late 2007, Honda's doesn't require a separate tank of urea, an organic compound that helps absorb NOx but needs to be replenished occasionally. Instead, its diesel converts some of the NOx into ammonia, then recombines that with what's left of the NOx to make relatively harmless nitrogen. Honda says the technology will reduce exhaust emissions to levels on a par with gasoline engines. "The Honda system is quite elegant," says Christopher Richter, a Tokyo analyst at CLSA Asia-Pacific Markets.
Does anyone know why Ford did not go this route?
Honda's Green (Diesel) Machine
Super Moderator
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: SW Virginia
Good question and thanks for the link. It sounds like a great concept but I wonder if Honda was unable to make it work or get EPA approval. The article is from October of 2006 and I don't think Honda has marketed a diesel here yet. It stated in the article that they'd be marketing them in the US in 2009.
Just wondering because it sounds like a great concept.
Just wondering because it sounds like a great concept.
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Post Fiend
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AFAIK, EPA was not an issue.
Issue is Honda got spooked by the high price of diesel fuel right up to Summer 2008 before the crash.
What they don't seem to understand is that diesel fuel prices collapsed, and now, diesel capacity has been greatly expanded at the refinery level.
It is extremely risky for automakers to bring diesel cars to market.
VW is doing gangbusters with the TDI, so is MB with theirs.
Everyone else has gone head over heels for hybrids.
Nevermind that with 15ppm diesel now standard, there is no longer a reason not to.
Remember Chrysler with the ill fated Diesel Liberty?
I am wondering if 10ppm diesel fuel is really required for Euro 5 diesels to be brought over here and run unmodified.
Suspect the problem is in 10ppm diesel, plus higher spec Euro AECA oil vs. API oil.
Many many issues.
A lot of risk for cash strapped automakers.
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Joined: Oct 2005
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From: SW Virginia
Yeah I agree. VW has been doing well here for a while with their TDI. I guess time will tell whether or not consumers will trust new diesel technology from automakers that haven't previously offered it in this country...aka toyota, nissan, honda. If they've offered them previously I guess I just don't remember them. I remember the Mazda and Ranger diesel pickups and I think now, they'd be a hit. I know I'd rather have a diesel than a hybrid anyday.
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Post Fiend
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Diesels get better mileage than hybrids for equivalent acceleration / power.
Diesels also last longer, cost less to maintain / own / upkeep vs. hybrids, and so on.
This is true of VW TDIs that routinely put on 200,000 miles before junk yard... often 400,000 or more in taxi applications.
Truck diesels play to a different crowd.. those needing heavy carrying capacity or towing. Much more heavily built, and much more expensive to maintain and own than a equivalent gas.
Difference: diesel can put out 40 to 60% of rated power all day.
Gasoline engine can put out maybe 20% of rated... anymore and don't expect it to last.
Diesels also last longer, cost less to maintain / own / upkeep vs. hybrids, and so on.
This is true of VW TDIs that routinely put on 200,000 miles before junk yard... often 400,000 or more in taxi applications.
Truck diesels play to a different crowd.. those needing heavy carrying capacity or towing. Much more heavily built, and much more expensive to maintain and own than a equivalent gas.
Difference: diesel can put out 40 to 60% of rated power all day.
Gasoline engine can put out maybe 20% of rated... anymore and don't expect it to last.
Posting Guru
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Do you have any facts to back any of this up? Or is it just opinion?
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Post Fiend
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Plenty.
Any objective test of Diesels in actual use vs. Hybrids have the diesels winning.
VW Jetta TDI Diesel vs. Toyota Prius Reviews - Volkswagen Fuel Economy Beats Prius - Popular Mechanics
EPA data on hybrid mileage is know to be widely exaggerated, while diesel mileage is understated.
Costs: Hybrids have exceptionally high maintenance costs once the power train warranty runs out at 100,000 miles.
Go price out a set of new batteries for a Prius, or Honda hybrid.
Their repair costs after the 3/36k miles warranty period are also much higher than a non-hybrid vehicle.
Go price out components like AC compressor, Power brake booster on the Prius.
Hybrids are basically non-economic to operate after the warranty expires at 100,000 miles.
Gasoline and Diesel cars easily last 150,00miles or much more, in the case of Diesels.
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Posting Guru
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Plenty.
Any objective test of Diesels in actual use vs. Hybrids have the diesels winning.
VW Jetta TDI Diesel vs. Toyota Prius Reviews - Volkswagen Fuel Economy Beats Prius - Popular Mechanics
EPA data on hybrid mileage is know to be widely exaggerated, while diesel mileage is understated.
Costs: Hybrids have exceptionally high maintenance costs once the power train warranty runs out at 100,000 miles.
Go price out a set of new batteries for a Prius, or Honda hybrid.
Their repair costs after the 3/36k miles warranty period are also much higher than a non-hybrid vehicle.
Go price out components like AC compressor, Power brake booster on the Prius.
Hybrids are basically non-economic to operate after the warranty expires at 100,000 miles.
Gasoline and Diesel cars easily last 150,00miles or much more, in the case of Diesels.
Any objective test of Diesels in actual use vs. Hybrids have the diesels winning.
VW Jetta TDI Diesel vs. Toyota Prius Reviews - Volkswagen Fuel Economy Beats Prius - Popular Mechanics
EPA data on hybrid mileage is know to be widely exaggerated, while diesel mileage is understated.
Costs: Hybrids have exceptionally high maintenance costs once the power train warranty runs out at 100,000 miles.
Go price out a set of new batteries for a Prius, or Honda hybrid.
Their repair costs after the 3/36k miles warranty period are also much higher than a non-hybrid vehicle.
Go price out components like AC compressor, Power brake booster on the Prius.
Hybrids are basically non-economic to operate after the warranty expires at 100,000 miles.
Gasoline and Diesel cars easily last 150,00miles or much more, in the case of Diesels.
The Popular Mechanics road test is on a version of the Prius thats been out of production for 2 1/2 years. And even at that; Jetta 45.4 mpg to Prius 44.8 on the highway? A whole .6 mpg better with a fuel that averages 10% higher per gallon in cost?
And maybe go price out components like the turbo, fuel system or the power brake system on a diesel VW.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Sand GAp, KY
O.k. I have a question. What do we do with the junk batteries in the hybrids when they go bad? What is the cost of disposal, and replacement? What happens if you are in an accident and those same batteries are ejected from the vehicle and leak. Oh and I know it could never happen but what if those same batteries where to start leaking in the car and letting off dangerous gases and explode (murphy's law may apply here)? I have never seen diesel fuel explode, burn black as hell but not explode. And besides what better smell in the world than diesel, in the can or the exhuast lol?
Posting Guru
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O.k. I have a question. What do we do with the junk batteries in the hybrids when they go bad? What is the cost of disposal, and replacement? What happens if you are in an accident and those same batteries are ejected from the vehicle and leak. Oh and I know it could never happen but what if those same batteries where to start leaking in the car and letting off dangerous gases and explode (murphy's law may apply here)? I have never seen diesel fuel explode, burn black as hell but not explode. And besides what better smell in the world than diesel, in the can or the exhuast lol?
Have you ever seen a battery from a hybrid vehicle explode? Have you ever seen one "burn black as hell"?
Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Sand GAp, KY
I do wonder about all those batteries and I was refering to diesel fuel burning black. And if they are the same tech as the batteries used in the other things you mentioned they get hot real hot when in use. I just know that battery powered vehicles are not the answer to any of our current or future problems. At least with the diesel you can use just about any form of oil (and maybe even some plastrics) to convert to a diesel fuel and run it. Matter of fact bio diesel runs way cleaner than dino and is renewable. I don't have the time or room on this forum to cover it all but if you went to the bio diesel forum on here and read it you will find that bio fuels are a viable alternative to dino fuels and will impact the inviroment far less than electric will. Therefore that makes diesel vehicles the better choice for the future.
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Post Fiend
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What that data shows is Toyota is concealing the true cost of the Hybrid system very well because the cost to customer for hybrid powertrain is covered under warranty for 7years or 100,000 miles.
What is the cost from 7years and 1 month, 100,001 mile to say, 200,000 miles?
The above data shows that the Toyota Prius, NET of the Hybrid Powertrain covered components, cost nearly as much as a VW to maintain when the VW have a much shorter warranty.
What will be the cost after the Prius hybrid powertrain warranty expired?
Do you have a problem disclosing material facts of the true cost of operating a Toyota hybrid after the powertrain warranty expired?
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Post Fiend
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Those aren't facts, they're opinions and generalizations.
The Popular Mechanics road test is on a version of the Prius thats been out of production for 2 1/2 years. And even at that; Jetta 45.4 mpg to Prius 44.8 on the highway? A whole .6 mpg better with a fuel that averages 10% higher per gallon in cost?
And maybe go price out components like the turbo, fuel system or the power brake system on a diesel VW.
The Popular Mechanics road test is on a version of the Prius thats been out of production for 2 1/2 years. And even at that; Jetta 45.4 mpg to Prius 44.8 on the highway? A whole .6 mpg better with a fuel that averages 10% higher per gallon in cost?
And maybe go price out components like the turbo, fuel system or the power brake system on a diesel VW.
If you do not believe that EPA testing OVERSTATES hybrid mileage, and UNDERSTATES diesel mileage, then you have a real problem that cannot be cured by exposure to scientific studies.
You probably believe that the Volt is good for the EPA gas mileage too!
Posting Guru
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What that data shows is Toyota is concealing the true cost of the Hybrid system very well because the cost to customer for hybrid powertrain is covered under warranty for 7years or 100,000 miles.
What is the cost from 7years and 1 month, 100,001 mile to say, 200,000 miles?
The above data shows that the Toyota Prius, NET of the Hybrid Powertrain covered components, cost nearly as much as a VW to maintain when the VW have a much shorter warranty.
What will be the cost after the Prius hybrid powertrain warranty expired?
Do you have a problem disclosing material facts of the true cost of operating a Toyota hybrid after the powertrain warranty expired?
What is the cost from 7years and 1 month, 100,001 mile to say, 200,000 miles?
The above data shows that the Toyota Prius, NET of the Hybrid Powertrain covered components, cost nearly as much as a VW to maintain when the VW have a much shorter warranty.
What will be the cost after the Prius hybrid powertrain warranty expired?
Do you have a problem disclosing material facts of the true cost of operating a Toyota hybrid after the powertrain warranty expired?
What will be the cost after the VW diesel powertrain warranty expires?
No, do you have a problem disclosing material facts of the true cost of operating a Volkswagen diesel after the powertrain warranty expires?