Since Ive been driving my 89 F350, the brakes have been less than great, and Im sick of them being a hazard. AS a precursor, I have newer front pads, new rear shoes, new brake lines and hoses, and one new front caliper. The truck also had NO brake lines when I bought it, so everything (including the M/C) wasd bone dry. I also bled the brakes at least 4 times.

First, the pedal has a lot of travel before anything (even before the brake lights come on) happens. I have to go almost to the floor for any kind of stopping.

Second, There is a bad pulsation through the entire truck during moderate stopping. It seems like the whole truck shudders to a stop, and it seems to be worse when the truck is in a gear.

What should I look into or remedy? I figured bleeding the brakes over and over again would fix it, but I really doubt that at this point.

 

Warped rotors? Out of round drums? These trucks seem to have some sort of problem with the brake light switch not kicking in til the pedal is almost to the floor. Nothing you can really do about that. As for the pedal going almost to the floor before catching, does it basically drop when you push it? When it does catch do you actually have brakes or is it spongy, or does it just drop? Does it return when you let off?

 

Master cylinder is questionable, sat "dry" for a unknown period of time? If so I'd just replace it.

Either way bench bleed the master cylinder first, then the lines if you don't you'll never get rid of all the air.

Shuddering during stops, front rotors are toast. Rust, heat warped or badly worn unevenly. If thick and not rusty have turned true, new rotors shouldn't be real expensive. Sometimes its not worth the time and money spent on saving the rotors on one, new rotors just don't cost that much now days.

Excessive pedal travel, most likely cause is incorrectly installed/adjusted rear shoes. Again turn drums or replace if to far "out", drums can also cause shudder but not as likely. Out of round or heat warp drums tend to result in rear brakes that grab, tend to skid a wheel easily.

 

Well, danr1 basically said everything that I was questioning you to get to. So, I second that.

 

Thanks for the replies. I am not sure of how to bench bleed the master cylinder, so Ill try searching that up. Im, almost positive the rear shoes are correctly adjusted because they are adjusted just to the point where they touch the drums but dont grab them hard. They also have all new hardware and springs. I will try to pick up some new rotors-do these trucks have the rotorzs that you have to pound the lug studs out of them?

 

Im pretty sure all of these trucks have rotors that contain the whole hub so they come with new studs (mine did anyway) but you will need to swap over the wheel bearings and get new seals (unless you can switch out the old ones which surprisingly I have seen people do).

Bench bleeding a master cylinder isnt hard. They usually come with directions but basically you put it in a vice, plug the holes for the brake lines, fill the reservoir with fluid and use a screwdriver or something to pump the piston until it gets hard and you wont see any more bubbles.

 

I agree with danr1 as well on the MC- if it sat dry for a period of time I wouldn't trust it. Also the pedal action you're describing sounds like MC as well.

As for bleeding, maybe I just got lucky, but when I changed the MC in mine I didn't bench bleed it- I just bled the brakes as one normally would and haven't had any trouble since. But I suppose a bench bleed would work better for your situation. Just keep in mind that even when you're sure you've bled all the air out of the system, continue bleeding them anyway- it's surprising how air can get trapped in the lines and remain there.

What I recommend is after you change the MC and do an initial bleed, pump the brakes for a while. If they stiffen up then great- you're probably okay. If not, bleed them again. It's been my experience that pumping the brakes with the bleeders closed can help work air toward the ends of the lines and make it quicker to bleed them.

Keep us updated.

 

I agree with danr1 as well on the MC- if it sat dry for a period of time I wouldn't trust it. Also the pedal action you're describing sounds like MC as well.

As for bleeding, maybe I just got lucky, but when I changed the MC in mine I didn't bench bleed it- I just bled the brakes as one normally would and haven't had any trouble since. But I suppose a bench bleed would work better for your situation. Just keep in mind that even when you're sure you've bled all the air out of the system, continue bleeding them anyway- it's surprising how air can get trapped in the lines and remain there.

What I recommend is after you change the MC and do an initial bleed, pump the brakes for a while. If they stiffen up then great- you're probably okay. If not, bleed them again. It's been my experience that pumping the brakes with the bleeders closed can help work air toward the ends of the lines and make it quicker to bleed them.

Keep us updated.

 

I am not sure of how to bench bleed the master cylinder, so Ill try searching that up.

Two main ways of doing so, plug and pump as directed above or use a inexpensive bench bleed kit.
Myself I prefer the kit, has several plastic fittings "nipples" for the various master cylinders and a couple of short lengths of hose.
Use two of the nipples that fit your application, screw them in and attach a hose to each one. Fill master cylinder with fluid, put open end of hoses down in the fluid in the master cylinder, slowly pump cylinder, full strokes, until no more bubbles are floating to the top out of hoses (solid fluid circulating round and round).
Remove nipples and hoses, attach brake lines. I do this with the master cylinder mounted in the vehicle "bench bleed" is a misnomer or a generic term. Either method can and should be done on the vehicle, allows for a quick switch to the brake lines without fluid loss or possibility of air getting in.

do these trucks have the rotorzs that you have to pound the lug studs out of them?

Yea new rotors will be just the rotors only, you will have to knock out all the studs and then put them back in.
Put a lug nut on backwards, or tighten to regular nuts against each other, and use square hammer blows (or a press if you happen to have access to one) to knock em down and out. Then use a couple of flat washers and a regular nut to pull the studs back into place. You can use a lug nut on backwards to reset the studs to if you want, I just pick up a regular nut to do so.
Once you have the all the studs back in have the rotors "trued" to the hub to remove runout, leave the bearing races in for this the act of turning the rotors will not harm them, they much be in place to turn them. You do not have to do this step if you do not want to but you will have a much better pedal "feel" if you do so. If you do not have them turned remember to use brake cleaner to remove the protective oil covering the rotors where the pads will ride.

Im, almost positive the rear shoes are correctly adjusted because they are adjusted just to the point where they touch the drums but dont grab them hard

Good, I always mention it because its often over looked.

 

If you're going to go to the effort to replace the rotors/hubs, spend the extra 20 bucks and put new bearings in while it's apart to go with the new races in the new rotor/hub.

I disagree. Bench bleeding gets the air out of the master cylinder, which is often more effective outside of the vehicle on a workbench (a clutch master cylinder in a mid-90's Ranger is case in point). The term "bench bleeding" is definitely not a misnomer.

Once bled, I put the plastic plugs that come with the new master cylinder back in the ports and it stays sealed as I walk from the bench to the vehicle. It should stay bled as long as the reservoir remains full.

It really depends where the new rotors come from. The ones I looked at all came with studs and bearing races already installed. The ones NAPA sells are also guaranteed "no turn" out of the box, and the Motorcraft ones I bought are noticeably smoother than the originals they replaced, again without turning them at all.

 

EPNCSU2006, Thank you.

Seeing the posts that came after mine I felt like I was being portrayed as dumb because none of what the others said agreed with what I said.

 

Dam, yea if the op asks for a rotor/hub assembly that is what he'll get. The assembly includes new bearings, races come already installed in the hub.

If the OP asks for rotors that is all that will come in the box, why spend the extra on hubs if they're not needed. Two rotors for 35 bucks each or two hub/rotor/bearing assembles for 100 to 160 bucks each depending on exact application. The rotors he has may just need turned for 12-15 bucks each.

And yea if he gets no turn rotors then in most cases he wouldn't need them touched up. The parts guy would tell him that if that is in fact what he buys. I've bought no turn rotors and had to have them trued to the hub. Nothing wrong with the hub just a tad to much run out for my taste. I do not want any amount of runout working on the caliper retainers regardless of how little it is.

Yes bench bleed is bench bleed, misnomer as in I just didn't want the OP thinking it was the only way it can or should be done. Some people do not have a bench vise.

I can install a master cylinder dry on a truck, bleed it then connect the lines and then bleed them and be done in all of 20 to 30 minutes, if that. I like to cut out unnecessary steps to the same end result. If you want to do it in a vice and use them plastic dust caps go ahead and do it that way. The little bit of fluid that leaks in the few seconds it take to swap over from the bleed kit to the trucks brake line is nothing. Same as some like to use the plug method, I like to use the kit, people are creatures of habit, do it like they always have....... hey whatever floats your boat
Working alone? yea might better do it in a vice, more often then not a guys got a helper. Pumps the pedal for the master cylinder then the lines, not everyone has a hand vac either.
I been buying my parts from the same guy for over 23 years, I buy a rotor from him he trues it for me if needed at no extra charge. Now back when they where costly new and I'd buy good ones cheap at the bone yard? Yea I paid shop labor for those but back then it cost 2.50 to have one done.

EPNCSU2006, Thank you.

Seeing the posts that came after mine I felt like I was being portrayed as dumb because none of what the others said agreed with what I said.

My intent was not to portray you has dumb or wrong, not at all. Don't know where you guys shop for parts but where I buy if I ask for a rotor, a rotor is what I get. If I want a hub with it I had better ask for it. Rarely if ever need a hub.

And yea late 80's bronco 2 and mid-90's Rangers clutch bleed job, a pain in the *** anyway you cut it. I've done it in a vice completely assembled with the slave at the end of the line then unplugged it and put it in the vehicle, done it one component died needed replaced what have ya. Pumped it, vac it, gravity bleed style don't make any difference they are a complete pain to rid of all air.

 

Danr1, I know you werent trying to do anything wrong, and you didnt. It was just not right according to my knowledge. I was only aware of the hub/rotor assemblies on these trucks. I didnt know they sold just plain rotors. I paid 45.00 for the whole hub.

As for bench bleeding. When you dont have a vice have one person hold it and one person bleed it. In my truck anyhow, the master cylinder does not sit level so air would be trapped if I bled it in the truck.

 

Danr1, I know you werent trying to do anything wrong, and you didnt. It was just not right according to my knowledge.
Did mean to imply your answer was wrong rather adding to it, so the OP knows if nothing else he has the option buying either way. Wouldn't want him thinking he had to buy the complete hub/rotor assembly if he didn't need to/want to. That his thought's where correct as far as the ability to bust the two parts.....well..... apart. LOL!

I didnt know they sold just plain rotors

I can tell by your posts here you have a somewhat limited knowledge, at least as how it pertains to this series of trucks anyhow. But reading, working on em and pitching in there learning more at the same time, that's how we started and continue to add to that knowledge.

Also keep in mind you bought a hub for a f-150 for 45 bucks correct? Yea I can see 45 bucks for one of them, the op is talking F-350 though, parts for it in just about every aspect will be more especially in the frame/suspension/brakes areas. Again not correcting you just pointing out a fact you may not have considered.

I looked it up, hub/rotor assembly for a F-350 varies depending on source and exact application, (exactly what axle size brakes/rotor he has) looks to be from 99 to 168 bucks. Somewhat limited examples in price found online though, found that "call for pricing" was listed as the price more often then not for that year and series truck.

Regardless the OP has some good information to start out with and that's what really counts.

 

Thanks Danr1. Exactly right. Thats one reason im here.

<quote>"But reading, working on em and pitching in there learning more at the same time, that's how we started and continue to add to that knowledge."</quote>