While a agree with Stab’s comment about synthetic oil being a waste on stock cars and trucks that get regular oil changes, he needs to realize that many of us Ford truck enthusiasts don’t drive stock cars and trucks and therefore synthetics actually benefit most of us in this forum. Besides, you wouldn’t be in this forum in the first place if you are the type of a person that gets oil changed at lube shops in the first place. Here are my personal experiences with Mobil 1 oil, which reinforces my recommendations for the synthetic oil.

1. I used to have an 87 Toyota Supra turbo, which I regularly used Mobil 1 5W-30 on. During a winter night, Supra overheated while going up a mountain road. It wouldn’t even idle so I could not do a turbo cool down (this prevents oil from burning inside the turbo coolant lines, which will bring about a quick death to turbo bearings). I popped the hood open and noticed that beside the steam coming out of my radiator, the turbo was glowing red! I thought the turbo would be shot but after taking care of the cooling issues, I started the car and the turbo boosted as if it was never overheated. I’d say the synthetics higher temp rating paid off in this case.
2. My friend has driving my Stealth Twin Turbo when we were visiting our friends at Grand Junction. There is a long stretch of flat highway after the mountains and we were bored, so we decided to try to peg the speedo (which has max reading of 180MPH). We stopped at 168MPH as even high beams are quite useless at that speed and we couldn’t see the road very well. The engine probably spend good 10-15 minutes at 6000+ RPM (redline at 7000 RPM) and I sure am glad that I had Mobile 1 in the crankcase.
3. On my F250 (which I also used Mobil 1 on), when the 2nd gear went out on the trannie, I had to get the engine over 3000RPM (which is pretty high for a stock 400) every time to get it to shift into the third gear. Sometimes, I even get the engine up to 4,500 rpm to see if it can take the abuse and I haven’t had any problems with the engine so far.
4. I’ve read several different magazine articles and books with the dyno results and they usually gained 7 to 10HP on the average when they switched to the synthetic oil.
5. A recent Car Craft recommend that you use synthetic oil at the tracks as it can withstand more heat. This reinforced my first point.
6. From many import sports cars I’ve seen, the turbo versions come with oil coolers while non-turbo versions do not, which means that more power you produce, you’ll need more thermo protection.
7. As stated in other posts, some of us may need freer flowing oil for cold start-ups. I did an experiment by putting a bottle of regular oil and Mobil 1 in the freezer overnight. Guess which one flowed better the next day?

 

I do not use synthetics, but I actually agree with most of your points. Turbocharged gasoline engines, racing, and sub-zero weather all are situations where synthetics shine. If I had a new BMW, Corvette, Mercedes or Prosche, I would use it because the factory fill is synthetic. The owner's manual for my 1992 BMW specifically reccomends against it in the high-performance M3 model, go figure.

The vast majority of us do not operate trucks under those conditions. My truck never sees 4000rpm, nor temperatures below +20 degrees F. Even the 15W-40 Chevron Delo that I use is probably overkill, but there is no premium in price, and I can use the same product in the BMW as well as the Ford. The BMW holds seven quarts in that little 2.5 litre straight six!

I think a lot of the resentment against synthetics is because of the marketing tactics of some of the smaller, specialty oil companies. Amsoil, Neo, Redline, Royal Purple make some fantastic claims to try and justify the high prices. The 25,000 mile drain interval is my favorite. Getting extra horsepower out of a race engine by using a water-thin 0W-20, 5W or 7W is probably a legitimate claim.

 

That point about the oil coolers is one I haven't thought of. The 'low performance' 460 in my Lead Sled (AKA '95 F-250) has an engine oil cooler from the factory, obviously oil problems due to heat were a real concern to Ford.
So, I use a synthetic oil that is extremely resistant to heat degradation and conducts heat well, usually Mobil 1.

Man, that I-70 run sounds like one scary night ride! I've only seen one person fly by me like that in that area, it was west of Glenwood Springs a couple of years ago. Fellow in a big gray Beemer..with state legislator license plates on it. Heh!

 

This debate never dies, and I never seem to lose interest in it...
A few comments and questions.
a) I hear about the "7% - 10% HP gains" but wonder...why, if it is that simple, doesn't Ford put synthetic in from the factory (in their trucks). Break in problems? Cost? I figure if Ford -or any OEM - could see a 10HP gain they would go for it from a marketing standpoint. I'm sure there are valid reasons, I just don't know 'em.
b) I hear the "worst case scenario" stories and I DO believe them. I figure synthetic probably provides some degree of extra protection in these "extreme cases". BUT....an example of my thought process on that subject. I figure I (or my wife) am far more likely to have flat tire rolling along at 70 mph than we are (as an example) to have a sudden loss of oil pressure. I do not use run-flat tires, and arguably they could be more important than the added protection of synthetic oil. Based on statistics, one could argue that synthetic is money spent in the wrong area.
c) I still believe this is MOSTLY a matter of personal preference and most of us who use dino are simply not sold on the necessity -or even the talked about benefits - of synthetic for STANDARD TO MODERATE DAY-TO-DAY applications.
d) example: I raced motorcycles (road racing) for 2 years as a weekend hobby. I ran Castrol 20W50 dino. My motorcycle LIVED above redline (around 11-12,000 rpm), Never had a problem. I know---different application. But which do you think is more punishing to an oil?
e) we once loaned our Dodge Ram 50 (Mitsubishi) to a guy. He checked and added a quart of oil but failed to put the cap back on the valve cover fill port. About 150 miles later the engine started knocking real bad then died and "siezed". The oil did not touch the dipstick - it had slung out the open fill port. We let the engine cool, added several quarts, cranked up and drove away, Put about 40,000 more miles on the truck before we sold it; never had a problem.

So, I guess I'm still comfortable with dino. But I enjoy the debate / discussion!!

Brian A

 

I agree that your examples of turbo cars did benefit from synthetic oil. I think the other statements you made were opinion and not fact. I still say that in 99% of cars synthetic is a waste. The turbo cars you mentioned are in the one percent. BTW, dyno runs vary several HP with out any mods. I could make 10 dyno runs with 10 different readings. Last time I saw one of those articles they claimed the typical 7-10 hp gain. What most people didn't pick up was they compared 20W-50 conventional to 5W-30 synthetic. Not a fair comparision in my view.

 

>I agree that your examples of turbo cars did benefit from
>synthetic oil. I think the other statements you made were
>opinion and not fact. I still say that in 99% of cars
>synthetic is a waste. The turbo cars you mentioned are in
>the one percent. BTW, dyno runs vary several HP with out
>any mods. I could make 10 dyno runs with 10 different
>readings. Last time I saw one of those articles they
>claimed the typical 7-10 hp gain. What most people didn't
>pick up was they compared 20W-50 conventional to 5W-30
>synthetic. Not a fair comparision in my view.

I've posted a summer of Hot Rod article not too long ago. They both used 10W-30 weight oil in that test and the HP figures was the average, not the maximum. Of course, they didn't mention the sample size or the standard deviation so Hot Rod test could be skewed as well. Still, 5W-30 synthetic compaired to 20W-50 conventional oil may be a fair comparision if the the synthetic oil offered same amount of projection as the heavier conventional oil.

 

I agree that the syn vs. dino is a pretty good subject and I learn many facts from observing the debates on this forum. So now on to the debate...

>This debate never dies, and I never seem to lose interest in
>it...
>A few comments and questions.
>a) I hear about the "7% - 10% HP gains" but wonder...why, if
>it is that simple, doesn't Ford put synthetic in from the
>factory (in their trucks). Break in problems? Cost? I figure
>if Ford -or any OEM - could see a 10HP gain they would go
>for it from a marketing standpoint. I'm sure there are valid
>reasons, I just don't know 'em.

I'd say that companies like to cut costs. Otherwise, we'd never have any warrenty problems! Syn oil costs 3 to 4 times more than the dino oil. The 7-10HP gains were from modded engines so chances are that the gains on stock engines would be much less. The point I was trying to make is that the gains came from less friction, which would equal to more protection and just like the oil cooler, if you have high HP engine, you may need more protection.

>b) I hear the "worst case scenario" stories and I DO believe
>them. I figure synthetic probably provides some degree of
>extra protection in these "extreme cases". BUT....an example
>of my thought process on that subject. I figure I (or my
>wife) am far more likely to have flat tire rolling along at
>70 mph than we are (as an example) to have a sudden loss of
>oil pressure. I do not use run-flat tires, and arguably they
>could be more important than the added protection of
>synthetic oil. Based on statistics, one could argue that
>synthetic is money spent in the wrong area.

Considering that massive majority of the cars out there are bone stock, normally, syn oil would be an overkill. However, if you limit the popluation to car/truck enthusiasts, the ratio of bone stock car/truck to modded ones would differ greatly than compared to the general population.

>c) I still believe this is MOSTLY a matter of personal
>preference and most of us who use dino are simply not sold
>on the necessity -or even the talked about benefits - of
>synthetic for STANDARD TO MODERATE DAY-TO-DAY applications.
>d) example: I raced motorcycles (road racing) for 2 years as
>a weekend hobby. I ran Castrol 20W50 dino. My motorcycle
>LIVED above redline (around 11-12,000 rpm), Never had a
>problem. I know---different application. But which do you
>think is more punishing to an oil?

The motorcycle may had more revs but the Stealth engine had two turbos and the engine oil has to lube and cool both the enigne and the turbos. Plus the Stealth is also heavier as well. And also remember that I am running 5W-30 on the Stealth. Would you run dino 5W-30 on your race bike?

>e) we once loaned our Dodge Ram 50 (Mitsubishi) to a guy. He
>checked and added a quart of oil but failed to put the cap
>back on the valve cover fill port. About 150 miles later the
>engine started knocking real bad then died and "siezed". The
>oil did not touch the dipstick - it had slung out the open
>fill port. We let the engine cool, added several quarts,
>cranked up and drove away, Put about 40,000 more miles on
>the truck before we sold it; never had a problem.

I've heard first person stories about getting over 200k miles with dino oil so as stated before, dino oils aren't bad at all for most people. But you'll have to agree that most engines that sieze from lack of oil usually have worse fate than yours.

>So, I guess I'm still comfortable with dino. But I enjoy the
>debate / discussion!!
>
>Brian A

I'm pretty sure we'll have more input from the both sides of the camp so let's hear'em!

 

This was one of the better debates we have had in a while on this forum.

I don'y buy in to the "modified engines" idea. How modified? Higher than 11:1 compression? Reaching 7K or more RPM? NOS? Supercharged?
These are few areas I can see a desire (not need) for the added protection. I just have to ask because a lot of folks like to call a K&N air filter, exhaust, and pulleys mods. I call them bolt ons. Most people from what I have seen put synth in mostly stock vehicles. Considering a new F150 with a 5.4 only puts about ~200 hp to the wheels I don't see how synth will help. To each their own I guess.

Similar example:
I like Miller Lite beer. As a matter of fact I like a lot of different beers(mostly Miller products, Budweiser products suck IMO). I buy Miller Lite 99% of the time. My dad thinks I'm nuts for paying ~$5 for a 6pack of beer when he buys a 12 pack of Busch Light for ~$6. I will admitt that they both render the same affect but I just think Miller is a superior tasting beer. After two beers I probably can't tell the difference but I think I can.
I guess we all have a weakness when it comes to the percieved benefits of something that cost a little more but in the end it is piece of mind that matters. I just choose to go overboard with beer and not synthetic oil.

I just hate the way that synth is pushed down our throats. I don't like how it is marketed. They make you believe that it does things that are needed when in fact it does very little any different than conventional. The only real benefits of synth to me are extended drains and easier flow at start up in cold weather. I will not do extended drains with any oil and it never gets below zero where I live for more than a few hours. That makes synth a huge waste of money to me. My vehicle will never get overheated. I will shut down before it happens. My vehicles don't have a turbo. I am now on my fourth vehicle with over 100K. They all used conventional oil. Mostly Pennzoil. One of the cars has 210K snd it is as good as new.

 

Interesting discussion.

For me, generally the main benefit I pay attention to with synthetic is the better flow in cold weather - and I'm not sure I'd run synthetic if I lived in a warmer climate. The farthest south I've ever lived was southern Michigan, so I don't have a lot of experience in that department. I was lucky enough to be living in northeastern Minnesota when they set the all-time record cold temperature (over 60 below without counting a wind-chill), so only 10 or 20 below zero is like a nice spring day.

If I lived someplace warmer I'd probably run dino 20W-50 in both of my older vehicles, rather than the Mobil 1 15W-50 that's in them now - I doubt I'd spend the extra money on synthetic. I'd probably still run synthetic on my F150, because I don't trust the 4.2L V6 very much and I think it needs all the help it can get. It's pretty scary when you start looking into it and can't find anyone who has gotten 150K out of one, and very few who have been able to break 100K...

I certainly abuse my cars & trucks more than most people, but it's a tough call just how abusive you have to be before you need synthetic. Most of my abuse is things like overloading them (4,000 lbs over GVW on my old pickup), jumping them (current record is 75 feet w/an AMC Eagle), driving on rough roads at extremely high speeds (used to do support for off-road rally racing), off-roading, and things like that - which really abuse the chassis a lot more than the engine. However, I will admit that I've run my Lincoln over 45 mph in first gear - dunno what the RPMs were, but the 302 was screaming. As a general rule, never buy a used car from me.

I figure the extra cost of synthetic is a small price to pay for the abuse my vehicles endure...and I might be throwing my money out the window, but I figure there are worse ways to waste my money.

LK

 

I like Stab's premium beer analogy. It's a matter of choice. If you want, why not spend as much on an oil change that will give your vehicle at least 3 months of service, as you would on a weekend of pure decadent beer drinking pleasure? Or not.

Believe it or not, the world's heavy commercial industry depends on synthetic lubricants. I'd bet that consumer synthetic automotive lubricants are only a small slice of the pie.

The biggest customer's for synthetic lubricants are for aviation, marine and industrial gas turbines. General Electric, a major gas turbine manufacturer, specifies Mobiljet II synthetic, for use in all of it's aviation, marine and industrial gas turbines.

Synthetics are specified for gas turbines (jets) because their shafts turn at over 10,000 rpm. Synthetics are more resistant to coking than mineral oil. Gas turbine shafts run on ball or roller bearings, which are less resistant to coke particles in the fluid stream.

An industrial gas turbine's synthetic lube drain interval can be indefinite. Example: The gas turbine I operate at work has not had an oil change in it's 12 years of operation. Makeup has been added for leaks and loss. Filters are changed on a regular schedule, and samples of the lubricant are taken at regular intervals.

My point? Synthetic lubricants are a spillover from the industrial and aerospace lube requirements. It's good technology that is actually bargan priced if you consider the added benefits. BUT, as others have pointed out, goes beyond the lube requirements for most modern automobiles.

 

>Synthetics are specified for gas turbines (jets) because
>their shafts turn at over 10,000 rpm. Synthetics are more
>resistant to coking than mineral oil. Gas turbine shafts run
>on ball or roller bearings, which are less resistant to coke
>particles in the fluid stream.

I think that you just described the conditions the turbos go through. I also like Stab's analogy about the beer as well but as far as modded engines goes, if we spend $$$$ to extract as many HP out of an engine as possible (within budget), why not spend little more $ on syn oil to squeeze more HP out of it?

 

Nobody has mentioned one of the reasons for using synthetic instead of dino oil; synthetic is far more resistant to breakdown than dino oil. The byproducts of broken down motor oil, when combined with water, are corrosive. Broken down motor oil also forms sludge. These are the reasons for the 3 month/ 3,000 mile oil change interval that used to be the norm; to purge the gunked up oil.

 

Ok...

First, everyone needs to understand that not all Synthetics are the same, or even what most people think "Synthetic" is. Example- Castrol Syntec is actually Hydrocarbon based (dino oil), While Amsoil and Mobil 1 are Organic Ester based.
Hydrocarbon based Synthetics still contain waxes, polymers and contaminants that cause them to solidify in cold, cause ash and more contaminants when burned, which all cause sludge and other non lubricants to wear on your engine and seals.
Hydrocarbon lubricants, synthetic or not, also do not benefit form the superior film strength of true synthetics. This is the ONLY protection you have when you start your engine, and the stuff that forms between your cylinder walls and rings.

Horsepuller, the general population is a much bigger piece of the synthetic market then it used to be. GM and more recently Ford come with Synthetic in the pan (Not sure about Chrysler). You WILL void your warranty if you put dino oil in. Also, the Synthetics in Turbines and heavy equipment are quite a bit different then what we use in our engines. Hydraulic Fluids, Turbine Oils, Gear Oils and Bearing oils are all very specialized Synthesized Hydrocarbon based lubricants. The chassis components of heavy equipment use Silicone based lube.
About the Beer Analogy, that’s not how I look at it at all. Id like my rotating assembly and valvetrain to last a good 200k+. The way I see it, if you treat your engine like krap, that’s how its going to end up. Synthetics vastly superior lubrication, Detergent properties, cold start protection and general purity are all worth the $5 a qt price tag to me.


The added HP and TQ? That comes from less friction. True synthetics will always provide better lubrication then dino oil, no matter the condition or modifications made to the engine. Less friction is just as desirable on a bone stock engine as it is on a blown big block with a 500hp shot of N2O. I really doubt you will see any exact advertised number in increased power, but some will be there. Personally, I don't care about the minute power gains, less friction = more protection = longer engine life.

Don't even bring 2 cycle motorcycle engines in this conversation. That’s comparing Apples to Oranges...

Some more little bits of info and myths-

You CAN break in an Engine with Synthetic. I’ve done it, Both Ford and GM prove this shipping them from the factory with Synth. The Rings are nowhere near seated by the time they get to the dealership. And, FYI, you can break in a flat tappet cam with Synthetic, it’s actually a better idea due to superior film strength and resistance to breakdown during the intense heat. The only oil the cam gets during this processes is what slings off the crank throws, not very much and obviously not consistent. You don't even need oil to break in a roller cam...

Even though Synthetic oil will still lubricate like new past 3000 - 4000miles, it still accumulates particles and contaminants from your engine, and turns acidic just like dino oil would. You still need to change your oil.

Also, 5w anything is far too thin for synthetic, and only pours 5° lower then 10w. A 5w based oil0 will loose viscosity much sooner at high temps then a 10w. You will also notice a drop in oil pressure vs 10w. There is just no point for 5w Synth unless you live @ -75°, at which time you would go with 0w anyway. Your best bet is to go with 10w30 during the winter, and 15w50 during the summer.

I’m going to quit typing now... ill be back if you have any questions.


-----------------------
1990 Bronco XLT 302 Bone Stock

Tax Return Mods -
K&N, Dynomax Headers, Dynomax 2 1/2in Cat-Back, 160° Stat, TB Coolant Bypass

 

Mug: you seem to know something about the subject. A few more comments ...I will speak only of conventional 4 stroke internal combustion engines (by the way, my motorcycle was a 4 stroke, not a 2 stroke). I would wager that most of us here - I might be wrong on this one - are running stock to slightly modified engines. To my way of thinking, the garden variety "bolt on" mods do not create a heavily modified engine. I'll assume we can have some sort of consensus as to what constitutes a heavily modified motor. But, without going down that debatable trail, I'll stick to the issue.
I hear/read the terms "vastly superior properties" and similar terms frequently when the subject of synthetics comes up. And I'll not argue the point - fully synthetics are "better" in many ways and in many applications. BUT, "vastly" superior implies to me exactly that - VASTLY SUPERIOR. You point out (I believe) that you would, or do, still go with the 3-4,000 mile oil change interval. That takes away from the vastly superior argument. I'll concede that start up is a bad time, as no oil is spraying all over that moving metal. But, millions of car / truck engines have gone billions of miles with dino oil and the wear experienced at start up. Not to say that synthetics might afford added protection, but if the "other" arrangement was THAT bad, I'd guess all the big OEM's would have come up with preoilers, as their engines would wear out real fast.
I'll finish with this analogy - and I KNOW it is a stretch, but it is the way I see it. Here goes:
If I go squirrel hunting, I'm going to use a .22 rifle. It kills them dead and is good (with a scope) out to about 100 yards. Now, one could argue that a .300 magnum is a "vastly superior" cartridge. Higher velocity, heavier bullet, more kinetic energy, greater down-range performance, higher quality of bullet design and engineering, the list goes on (plus, they cost more so they've GOT to be better:-))
But, I'm squirrel hunting! I don't need all that! It's all true, but I have determined (for ME) that I don't think I need it. My .22 works fine. So, that's where I (still) stand on the synthetic oil issue. It might just be "superior' but I just don't see the need - yet.

Thanks,
Brian A

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-Apr-02 AT 12:07 PM (EST)]I do agree with the majority, that Synthetic is overkill. The cost of regular oil changes alone over 200k is about 3/4 of what a new long block would run.
A few things tho-

I see people like Stab badmouthing things they don't understand because of marketing, old wives tales or whatever nonsense they have seen/heard. I got tired this kind of thing quite a while back and usually write a 2 page rant when I come across it (see above ).

Also, I luv my vehicles. I beat the krap out of the Bronco, but maintain it as well as I know how. Synthetic oil is just one thing to help squeeze every last mile out of it. I admit, if you have an engine that lasts 250k on Synthetic, it would prolly last 180k+ on dino. Id bet $$$$ that it would have a much healthier life on synth.
Wear at startup isn't THAT bad, but its wear nonetheless, and synthetic will help. I like the fact that the old 302 has 100k on it, and goes through less then a Quart between oil changes (always between 3000 - 4000 miles). It reminds me that the synth is doing its job.
I spend about $125 a year for synth. While I could spend that money elsewhere on the Bronco, I’m positive that its keeping me from wasting a lot more time and money replacing seals, & deciding between an overbore with a new rotating assembly or a new short block in the next 50k.


-----------------------
1990 Bronco XLT 302 Bone Stock

Tax Return Mods -
K&N, Dynomax Headers, Dynomax 2 1/2in Cat-Back, 160° Stat, TB Coolant Bypass