>First, everyone needs to understand that not all Synthetics
>are the same, or even what most people think "Synthetic" is.
>Example- Castrol Syntec is actually Hydrocarbon based (dino
>oil), While Amsoil and Mobil 1 are Organic Ester based.

Esters are hydrocarbons. So are olefins, the other competing synthetic chemistry. Does anyone know what Mobil really means by "Tri-synthetic"?

>Hydrocarbon based Synthetics still contain waxes, polymers
>and contaminants that cause them to solidify in cold, cause
>ash and more contaminants when burned, which all cause
>sludge and other non lubricants to wear on your engine and
>seals.

There is no wax left in modern lubricating oil. Solvent refining is a relic of the past. Hydrocracking, isodewaxing and hydrofinishing convert the molecules into the desired product. Synthetics are polymers of olefins and esters. The ash comes from the additives, the oil itself burns off cleanly.


>Even though Synthetic oil will still lubricate like new past
>3000 - 4000miles, it still accumulates particles and
>contaminants from your engine, and turns acidic just like
>dino oil would. You still need to change your oil.

This is why I run a diesel-rated oil. It is formulated to hold contaminants in suspension and neutralize acids over a longer period of time and miles.


Great topic. Thanks for keeping it interesting.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-Apr-02 AT 01:16 PM (EST)]What I would like to see is an accurate comparison of "bang for the buck" of running synthetic oils vs. spending that money and buying a pre-oiler. I suspect that a pre-oiler would actually give more benefit per dollar than running synthetic oil, but it would be interesting to see if a bit of research would back that up...though it would probably be difficult to do any sort of true comparision. I've read a lot of studies on the subject, and they never seem to agree how much wear comes at startup - some say as low as 50%, and some say as high as 90%. This would probably depend on how many miles were driven and how long the vehicle was run *after* being started, but by either number that's a lot of wear. However, in cold climates synthetics help reduce that wear because they flow better at cold temperatures and get to the critical parts faster...hmmmm...

Of course, if we had any absolute answers then we couldn't pass the time by arguing with one another.

Oh, and to further confuse the chemistry aspect - I believe Redline oils use a somewhat different formulation of base stock, which is more similar to what is used in modern jet turbines and is capable of higher temps than Mobil 1 or Amsoil. Of course, I'm going by memory here and my memory is somewhat suspect.
(I've never run Redline oils, I've just talked to people who do.)

LK

 

Yes I think Red Line is polyol ester based or something like that.
Supposedly a very stable base stock for true syn

 

Regarding start-up wear; it is my understanding that synthetic oil clings to engine parts better than dino oil = less cold start wear.

Regarding 5w-30 oil (and 0w-30 oil); Mobil markets this stuff as better because it pumps up faster than 10w-30 oil.

Regarding dino vs. synthetic oil viscosity; synthetic oil has a naturally wider viscosity range. It requires less additives to span the operating heat range. Also, synthetic oil lubricates better when cold than dino oil does.

To me, there's almost no way to rationalize using dino oil for the kind of use I give my vehicles. Only the MG gets dino oil. It requires 20w-50 and Mobil's 15w-50 doesn't work right in that crazy engine. (I do use a Mobil 1 oil filter on it

Best regards,

 

Mug I just want to thank you for educating me. I just don't know how I would survive without a know it all like yourself. You ASSume that I don't understand the issue. You are just ranting and throwing out some scientific words to make you sound as smart as you wished you were. Soccer mom mini vans turn 100K every single day with infrequent wal mart bulk oil changes. I agree with the statement that "if it is more expensive it must be better" because how else could you justify the cost. Synthetic does not make street engines last longer.

Once again thanks for setting me strait. I hope you stay around since you are so ready to educate us poor souls. Your little statement "ill be back if you have any questions." really cracked me up. Hey I'm glad you can poke fun at yourself. It is a good quality to have. I do have a question though. Can you relate your statements regarding sythetic wonder lubes with real world examples instead of scientific garbage?
I would think most people would rather see results. I would anyway.

Later
Stab

 

>Regarding start-up wear; it is my understanding that
>synthetic oil clings to engine parts better than dino oil =
>less cold start wear.

Actually, straight weight dino clings best, synthetic flowability is a disadvantage here.

>Regarding dino vs. synthetic oil viscosity; synthetic oil
>has a naturally wider viscosity range. It requires less
>additives to span the operating heat range.

This is the major advantage. I understand that some grades do not need any VI improvers at all.

 

https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displaythumbnail.php?&photoid=3859&.jpg

....... https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displaythumbnail.php?&photoid=3189&.jpg

 

First off, like they all say, use the oil that meets the API and SAE spec for your engine, and change it regularly. For 90% of us that is more than enough.

I do use synthetics, and I think in general it may be overkill, but what the heck, in my mind spending $25 for a syn oil change versus $10 for dino is no big deal and worth it in my mind for the peace of mind. I have used syn (Mobil 1, Valvoline and Texaco) in all my engines(Car, truck, van, motorcycle, tractor, lawnmower etc) Since 1980. I have never had a problem with syn. I have never had a problem with dino either. I have read that syn does have better characteristics under extreme conditions(Heat, cold, performance, load).

Sure most of us never need to use the spare tire in our vehicle, why pay for the cost of the tire and the room it eats? Never the less when you need it, you really need it. What I am getting at is, I have been driving over 30 years and almost every car I have owned new and used has at one time or another, "exceeded" Factory recommended operation, ie it overheated, was pulling too heavy a load was going too fast whatever. In my mind with a car that I own for 100K or so, sooner or later I am going to have something bad happen and it is nice to know I have the margin the synthetic gives me. I am not saying the dino won't handle most cases, but there is evidence that the syn will go well beyond normal operation limits. There is a fair amount of lab test info from real labs that shows syn is better for extremes. There is also a lot of info that the new dinos are very very good. In my opinion you can't lose either way.

I have had fan belts fly off, a hundred miles from no where and been forced to drive with no water circulation for long periods. It was nice to know my oil would handle it. I have had at least 2 or 3 Tstats fail on me while driving while too far from help and had to limp home with the temperature way too high, nice to know the syn was there. I have towed an 8,000+ pound tailer, through 105+ desert heat, through a forest fire up the infamous Grapevine in So Cal and the truck wasn't even bothered. I have driven 120mph+ for an hour or two on a couple occasions in desert heat with cruise control and AC on, nice to know the syn was there, it was nice too, 55 mph never feels the same.

I could go on and on, but what I want to say is, maybe the dino could work fine, maybe not, but I know the syn was overkill and I could push the limits when forced to by need or stupidity.

Afterall, most of us are on this list and arguing this point because we are somewhat fanatical. Don't a lot of you change oil less than 3,000 miles all the time? Why? The manual says the oil is good for much more. Consumers Digest mag says use the cheapest dino based oil that meets your engine spec and change it per manufacturer recommendation, why do you buy the expensive dino and change every 3,000? Because we are fanatics and each of us has our quirks. My quirk is that I will use syn and I will change it every 7,500 per the manual. The syn won't hurt the engine and supposedly the oil is good for way more than the miles I change it at. If blowing an extra $15 every 7,500 miles gives me my jollies, what the heck, I could do worse.

To each of us, our own quirks, enjoy, at least we have a choice, enjoy them.

Jim Henderson

 

I agree with Jim 100%!

I do think that synthetic is used for piece of mind. It is the number 1 reason for synthetic oil use. I think most synth users tout the percieved benefits to justify the use.

I have said before that piece of mind is a good reason to use synth. My problem lies with people that say synth does things that dino doesn't.