52 ford F1
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52 ford F1
I have a 52 ford f1 truck with a straight 6, that i want to swap a v8 flathead from a 52 cresline with the 3sp and rear end. My question is
will this be a direct swap with VERY little headache. Also are the gear
ratios better on the car than the truck and what are they??
Also are the bell housings the same from the 6 to the 8??
will this be a direct swap with VERY little headache. Also are the gear
ratios better on the car than the truck and what are they??
Also are the bell housings the same from the 6 to the 8??
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
Likes: 3,124
From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
First, welcome to the board. You've come to the right place for your Ford truck questions.
I don't know exactly what problems you may have with the swap but the two things that come to mind is the water pumps, I think they may be quite different. In the truck they are used as mounts for the front of the engine, I'm not too sure about the cars. Also, there is a difference in the frame mounting area in a '51 and '52 truck. In '52 Ford started using the OHV 6 in place of the flat 6 but since you have a '51 I don't think this will make a difference with mounting a flat eight from the '52 car.
Second, the car oil pan I think is different than the trucks so you might run into some under side clearance problems. You may have to find an truck oil pan. The bellhousing between the V8 in the truck and the six in the truck is the same, I don't know if it's the same between the car and truck though.
I am sure there will be more knowledgeable people who have done this sway that will show up shortly with their input.
I don't know exactly what problems you may have with the swap but the two things that come to mind is the water pumps, I think they may be quite different. In the truck they are used as mounts for the front of the engine, I'm not too sure about the cars. Also, there is a difference in the frame mounting area in a '51 and '52 truck. In '52 Ford started using the OHV 6 in place of the flat 6 but since you have a '51 I don't think this will make a difference with mounting a flat eight from the '52 car.
Second, the car oil pan I think is different than the trucks so you might run into some under side clearance problems. You may have to find an truck oil pan. The bellhousing between the V8 in the truck and the six in the truck is the same, I don't know if it's the same between the car and truck though.
I am sure there will be more knowledgeable people who have done this sway that will show up shortly with their input.
I'll have the Roast Duck
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,622
Likes: 110
From: Northshore, MN
Welcome to the board! I got my '48 with a car V8 installed. It had the wrong water pumps that the PO modified the base on, and the oil pan was a center sump (for lack of better words), but it cleared the underside, but upon suspension compression, I'm not sure. Here's two pics showing the home made pump perch (again for lack of better words) which also shows the mounts riveted to the frame, and the two oil pans used....truck style on the stand, car style that came on my truck (blue)
Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 21
From: Poway, Ca.
Bob is right on the money. Havi too (I was typing when he was).
First welcome! I thinkyour being here and asking will save you lots of money and frustration as youbuild your truck - I wish I had done that sooner as well.
I actually tried to put a 239 Flathead from a car with the three speed in my truck before I participated here and these folks taught me a lot of great stuff.
Here are the shortfalls you will have.
First, the truck 239 was mounted in the front by a flange that was cast into the water pump - the Ford car water pumps don't have this flange (although the Mercury water pumps do) so you would have to change out the water pumps to truck pumps - then the domino's start to fall.
The truck water pumps have a wider pulley on them. So you would either have to change those out to car pulleys, or change the generator or balance pulley out to truck pulleys.
The motor mounting supports on the IL6 and OV6 are mounted farther forward in the truck as the 6 cylinder engine is longer. So, you would have to find a set of V8 motor mount members (they weren't cross members but rather looped from the front cross member to the side frame) and swap those out.
The oil pan is different on the auto motor and thus the pump puck-up - and maybe even the pump (not sure about the pump).
The battery and starter solenoid were mounted on different side of the engine compartment from the IL6 and V8 configurations.
The clutch in your 52 is activated off the pedal by a rotating shaft that pushed the bearing into the pressure plate tines. The auto used the more traditional bearing fork that gets pushed from the pedal. So, the bell housing and clutch would have to be changed to a truck configuration to match. Just trust me when I tell you the pedals can't be modified to accommodate the fork type.
Lastly, the three speed light duty transmission from the car has a long tail cone on it. This would interfere with and is not compatible with your truck transmission cross member and mounting bracket. The drive shaft would have to be shortened, and the way the drive shaft is hooked up to the transmission is different as well.
Here's a couple pictures of my mistake! It's pretty but was an absolute no go. Good news is I bought it because it was a steal at $400 complete and newly professionally rebuilt, and I sold it for double that! My advice: it's going to be "almost" (and I use that word for the do hards here who would throw in all the possible mods etc) IMPOSSIBLE as is. If you want to change out the water pumps, and associated pulleys, oil pan and pump, then change out the motor mounting (which you will have to do either way) and start new from the bell housing back with truck parts, it can be done. If you want a flathead 8 set up, I would recommend you buy one for a truck and then the front engine supports should be the only mod - I think.
The first picture shows the V8 mounting scheme in the truck frame
First welcome! I thinkyour being here and asking will save you lots of money and frustration as youbuild your truck - I wish I had done that sooner as well.
I actually tried to put a 239 Flathead from a car with the three speed in my truck before I participated here and these folks taught me a lot of great stuff.
Here are the shortfalls you will have.
First, the truck 239 was mounted in the front by a flange that was cast into the water pump - the Ford car water pumps don't have this flange (although the Mercury water pumps do) so you would have to change out the water pumps to truck pumps - then the domino's start to fall.
The truck water pumps have a wider pulley on them. So you would either have to change those out to car pulleys, or change the generator or balance pulley out to truck pulleys.
The motor mounting supports on the IL6 and OV6 are mounted farther forward in the truck as the 6 cylinder engine is longer. So, you would have to find a set of V8 motor mount members (they weren't cross members but rather looped from the front cross member to the side frame) and swap those out.
The oil pan is different on the auto motor and thus the pump puck-up - and maybe even the pump (not sure about the pump).
The battery and starter solenoid were mounted on different side of the engine compartment from the IL6 and V8 configurations.
The clutch in your 52 is activated off the pedal by a rotating shaft that pushed the bearing into the pressure plate tines. The auto used the more traditional bearing fork that gets pushed from the pedal. So, the bell housing and clutch would have to be changed to a truck configuration to match. Just trust me when I tell you the pedals can't be modified to accommodate the fork type.
Lastly, the three speed light duty transmission from the car has a long tail cone on it. This would interfere with and is not compatible with your truck transmission cross member and mounting bracket. The drive shaft would have to be shortened, and the way the drive shaft is hooked up to the transmission is different as well.
Here's a couple pictures of my mistake! It's pretty but was an absolute no go. Good news is I bought it because it was a steal at $400 complete and newly professionally rebuilt, and I sold it for double that! My advice: it's going to be "almost" (and I use that word for the do hards here who would throw in all the possible mods etc) IMPOSSIBLE as is. If you want to change out the water pumps, and associated pulleys, oil pan and pump, then change out the motor mounting (which you will have to do either way) and start new from the bell housing back with truck parts, it can be done. If you want a flathead 8 set up, I would recommend you buy one for a truck and then the front engine supports should be the only mod - I think.
The first picture shows the V8 mounting scheme in the truck frame
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
Likes: 3,124
From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
Julie,
The frame mounts are the same for both the 6 and the 8. The motor mounts on the flat sixes, used up to '51, sit farther back on the engine block. I assume the same for the OHV 6. The difference comes in the '52 model. Ford riveted a tower over the frame mounts to accommodate the new OHV 6. At least this is what I found on the parts trucks I've had. The radiators are the parts that moves back and forth to accommodate the different engine. That's another thing to consider, if your truck came with a 6 the radiator sits farther forward, which means the air dam, the sheet metal piece mounted in the hood, above the radiator, is narrower than the one used for the eight, you'll have to find an hood air dam from a V8 or make one yourself.
Colortec, the easiest way to go for you might be to use the truck tranny. I think, but not sure, that the car flywheel is different than the trucks'. Again, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure the clutch is different. If you have the heavy duty 3 speed or 4 speed tranny and want to get away from the double clutching, your reason for using the car tranny, and get better performance you might want to mate a T-5 to the back of the flattie. There are kits from different vendors that will allow you to do it, or if your current truck transmission is one of the heavy version you could use the clutch bellhousing to make your own adapter. The light duty 3 speed doesn't have the separate clutch housing. Either way you can retain your trucks stock clutch system. There has been a lot of posts about the T-5 install on this site and the Ford Barn has a couple of really good member articles:
Making an adapter to install a T
Borg Warner T5 Spec Chart
Since you don't have enough posts you can use Google to find the FTE posts relavent to the T-5 swap:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/8...ternative.html
The frame mounts are the same for both the 6 and the 8. The motor mounts on the flat sixes, used up to '51, sit farther back on the engine block. I assume the same for the OHV 6. The difference comes in the '52 model. Ford riveted a tower over the frame mounts to accommodate the new OHV 6. At least this is what I found on the parts trucks I've had. The radiators are the parts that moves back and forth to accommodate the different engine. That's another thing to consider, if your truck came with a 6 the radiator sits farther forward, which means the air dam, the sheet metal piece mounted in the hood, above the radiator, is narrower than the one used for the eight, you'll have to find an hood air dam from a V8 or make one yourself.
Colortec, the easiest way to go for you might be to use the truck tranny. I think, but not sure, that the car flywheel is different than the trucks'. Again, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure the clutch is different. If you have the heavy duty 3 speed or 4 speed tranny and want to get away from the double clutching, your reason for using the car tranny, and get better performance you might want to mate a T-5 to the back of the flattie. There are kits from different vendors that will allow you to do it, or if your current truck transmission is one of the heavy version you could use the clutch bellhousing to make your own adapter. The light duty 3 speed doesn't have the separate clutch housing. Either way you can retain your trucks stock clutch system. There has been a lot of posts about the T-5 install on this site and the Ford Barn has a couple of really good member articles:
Making an adapter to install a T
Borg Warner T5 Spec Chart
Since you don't have enough posts you can use Google to find the FTE posts relavent to the T-5 swap:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/8...ternative.html
Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 21
From: Poway, Ca.
Julie,
The frame mounts are the same for both the 6 and the 8. The motor mounts on the flat sixes, used up to '51, sit farther back on the engine block. I assume the same for the OHV 6. The difference comes in the '52 model. Ford riveted a tower over the frame mounts to accommodate the new OHV 6. Thanks Bob, That's good to know, makes sense - I didn't get that far and haven't looked that close to a Ford 6 in a long time. At least this is what I found on the parts trucks I've had. The radiators are the parts that moves back and forth to accommodate the different engine. That's another thing to consider, if your truck came with a 6 the radiator sits farther forward, which means the air dam, the sheet metal piece mounted in the hood, above the radiator, is narrower than the one used for the eight, you'll have to find an hood air dam from a V8 or make one yourself. Ok now I'm a little more curious - and I believe what you are saying but it raises a question in my mind: If the radiator is what is moved back and forth, then the radiator support does as well yes/no? Did the two versions have different radiator supports? Seems like the fenders and stuff that bolt on ot the radiator support would dictate that it stays in the same place?????
Colortec, the easiest way to go for you might be to use the truck tranny. I think, but not sure, that the car flywheel is different than the trucks'. Again, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure the clutch is different. If you have the heavy duty 3 speed or 4 speed tranny and want to get away from the double clutching, your reason for using the car tranny, and get better performance you might want to mate a T-5 to the back of the flattie. There are kits from different vendors that will allow you to do it, or if your current truck transmission is one of the heavy version you could use the clutch bellhousing to make your own adapter. The light duty 3 speed doesn't have the separate clutch housing. Either way you can retain your trucks stock clutch system. There has been a lot of posts about the T-5 install on this site and the Ford Barn has a couple of really good member articles:
Making an adapter to install a T
Borg Warner T5 Spec Chart
Since you don't have enough posts you can use Google to find the FTE posts relavent to the T-5 swap:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/8...ternative.html
The frame mounts are the same for both the 6 and the 8. The motor mounts on the flat sixes, used up to '51, sit farther back on the engine block. I assume the same for the OHV 6. The difference comes in the '52 model. Ford riveted a tower over the frame mounts to accommodate the new OHV 6. Thanks Bob, That's good to know, makes sense - I didn't get that far and haven't looked that close to a Ford 6 in a long time. At least this is what I found on the parts trucks I've had. The radiators are the parts that moves back and forth to accommodate the different engine. That's another thing to consider, if your truck came with a 6 the radiator sits farther forward, which means the air dam, the sheet metal piece mounted in the hood, above the radiator, is narrower than the one used for the eight, you'll have to find an hood air dam from a V8 or make one yourself. Ok now I'm a little more curious - and I believe what you are saying but it raises a question in my mind: If the radiator is what is moved back and forth, then the radiator support does as well yes/no? Did the two versions have different radiator supports? Seems like the fenders and stuff that bolt on ot the radiator support would dictate that it stays in the same place?????
Colortec, the easiest way to go for you might be to use the truck tranny. I think, but not sure, that the car flywheel is different than the trucks'. Again, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure the clutch is different. If you have the heavy duty 3 speed or 4 speed tranny and want to get away from the double clutching, your reason for using the car tranny, and get better performance you might want to mate a T-5 to the back of the flattie. There are kits from different vendors that will allow you to do it, or if your current truck transmission is one of the heavy version you could use the clutch bellhousing to make your own adapter. The light duty 3 speed doesn't have the separate clutch housing. Either way you can retain your trucks stock clutch system. There has been a lot of posts about the T-5 install on this site and the Ford Barn has a couple of really good member articles:
Making an adapter to install a T
Borg Warner T5 Spec Chart
Since you don't have enough posts you can use Google to find the FTE posts relavent to the T-5 swap:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/8...ternative.html
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I'll have the Roast Duck
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,622
Likes: 110
From: Northshore, MN
Julie, I'll provide a couple pics of my first truck. You'll see the 3 holes on the inner fender, and the 3 holes where the fender brace is still mounted. They're identical, and the rad. support bolts through them as well. ON the frame you'll also see the pair of identical holes in front of each other. So the whole thing pretty much moves fore and aft a couple inches. (one hole still has the broken bolt)
PS: this truck was a mess from the get-go. It's a v8 framed truck and a I6 body, 2 seperate serial #'s.
PS: this truck was a mess from the get-go. It's a v8 framed truck and a I6 body, 2 seperate serial #'s.
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Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 21
From: Poway, Ca.
Oh Ok!
So I guess when you move the radiator forward or back you just flip flop the fender brace too. Hmmmm makes complete sense! Interesting - never knew that. Maybe because I don't have the inner fenders, or the stock radiator mount with the tilt front. It's always nice to learn something new - Thanks Scott!
So I guess when you move the radiator forward or back you just flip flop the fender brace too. Hmmmm makes complete sense! Interesting - never knew that. Maybe because I don't have the inner fenders, or the stock radiator mount with the tilt front. It's always nice to learn something new - Thanks Scott!
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
Likes: 3,124
From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
The fender braces are actually the same. You just turn one the opposite of the other one. You would also have to move them back or forward according to which engine you are using. There are two sets of holes in the fender to match the inner fender panels.
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Thank you for making me part of the board, your info and pic helped. Would you know the gear
ratios from the car to the truck?? thx again!!
ratios from the car to the truck?? thx again!!
Last edited by colortec; Apr 26, 2009 at 06:01 PM. Reason: dupicated
I'll have the Roast Duck
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,622
Likes: 110
From: Northshore, MN
IIRC, trucks either had a 3.92 or 4.11 gear ratio. Both a bit steep for 65 mph and up, lol. The common swap is a Ford 9" from '57-72 f100's. But if you want a 5x4.5" wheel pattern (like that of cars), then the Ford Explorer 8.8 is the hot ticket. I don't know what the car ratios would be. But if I had a '48 Mercury, I'd be happy to share, lol.
Thread Starter
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New User
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IIRC, trucks either had a 3.92 or 4.11 gear ratio. Both a bit steep for 65 mph and up, lol. The common swap is a Ford 9" from '57-72 f100's. But if you want a 5x4.5" wheel pattern (like that of cars), then the Ford Explorer 8.8 is the hot ticket. I don't know what the car ratios would be. But if I had a '48 Mercury, I'd be happy to share, lol.