Shoot Clay (Riff Raff Performance) a message and see if he can still help you out.

 

Sorry Ernest, but this time I have to disagree.

I ran both the 6637 filter sucking in hot air, and now run the AFE Stage II (supposed to separate the filter from the engine bay).

I found zero difference in EGT's when driving around, drag racing, towing, etc.

Personally, I would run the 6637 on a daily driver truck, unless you can find an AFE setup for super cheap (that's the only reason why I'm running one). An AFE might benefit a high HP racer application (David Lott found it made a slight difference back when he was racing Snow White).

I guess the only thing that would really make a noticeable difference on a daily driver truck would be a true cold air intake with a snorkel system drawing in cold air from outside (something more elaborate than the Zoodad mod). Since no one makes this kit, we are kind of limited on choices.... unless someone is creative enough to make their own.

 

Agreed... I plan on adding a Tymar type filter to my AFE, just because I am sick of cleaning filters.

 

How can anyone disagree with a recommendation to "understand the "Physics" of your problem before "blindly" following advice"???

Did you read the link I referenced to the OP? Did that link say anything about "cold air intakes" lowering EGT? My link said that a "cold" vs "hot" air intake reduces the workload on the turbo for high altitude towing which increases the turbo's reliability! The problem that the OP needs to "understand the "Physics" of isn't his EGT while driving around town or drag racing but rather achieving overall reliability while towing heavy at high altitudes. This quote is from the referenced link...

These quotes are from What is a VAN turbo?!?!... This thread is located at:... https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s...1&goto=newpost ... and they also address turbo reliability at high altitude...

Your words describe one the mod pictures in the link I referenced to the OP and also these quotes from the Banks web site...

"Why Big Density Makes a Big Difference... Banks Power | Why Big Density Makes a Big Difference ...The best-engineered airboxes are sealed units that take the air in from the front of the vehicle and create the least-restrictive path to the turbocharger. Aftermarket filters-on-a-stick don’t work very well, even if the air filter element has an enclosure around it. They still tend to take in the hot underhood air, which is far less dense than outside ambient air..."

"Cool Air Equals Power... Banks Power | Cool Air Equals Power ...Many engines induct air that has passed through the radiator or over other warm areas of the engine, significantly heating the air and reducing its density. By relocating the air intakes to duct outside air that hasn't been warmed into the engine, density is significantly increased..."

The link I referenced to the OP also gives a cheap mod to lower EGT that's been proven by myself and others, but that mod doesn't have anything to do with the cold air intake mod!

Also if the OP doesn't at least install an early 99=WW wheel he'll soon be looking for a replacement turbo because a bone stock GTP38 turbo won't withstand the surge It'll encounter from towing a 28' 5er at 9K ft for very long!

 

If you guys want to defend the 6637 then please post on this thread... Yet another 6637 question.... This thread is located at:... https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s...4&goto=newpost ...because Izzy351 hasn't responded to my rebuttal of his outlandish and misleading claims!

 

I have a hard time breathing as it is at sea level, I can't even imagine what 10k up would be like? What is everyone out there doing with tunes, I'd imagine a 6.oh cooler is a prerequisite.

 

Yes Ernest I read that link. Living at high altitude and driving daily, I can honestly say that I have found no difference between running a 6637 filter setup and the AFE Stage II. There are many many people here who also run the 6637 filter and non of them have premature turbo failures due to the filter setup. I know you aren't a fan of the 6637, and that's fine, but when people run this filter on a daily basis without problems, I have no problem recommending that people use it if they want.

So why is it that people don't see a difference between the 6637 and AFE when the 6637 doesn't have a separator keeping it from breathing air under the engine? Well the answer is: track actual intake air temps between each setup. You like to post graphs, equations, etc to explain how much hotter the air temp is under the hood, but what you are missing from all of this is that at the filter, the air being drawn in is not as hot as you speculate. People keep trying to tell you this, but so far you continue to press your theories instead of looking at real world results. This is a quote from the thread you linked:
Once the truck is moving, the temperature of the intake air is nearly the same as the ambient air temps outside. The area where the filter sits on the battery tray is cooler than air closer to the engine. There is enough cold air flow to keep intake temps down, even without a shroud around the filter. Air temps under the hood are not equally distributed.

I know you like to use the Banks data too, but Banks doesn't even offer an intake setup for our trucks. The only thing they offer is a filter replacement for the stock box, which happens to be a piece of junk. Banks also has a lot of propaganda and bias, and I personally like to stick with 3rd party results that have less bias.

 

Well the laws of "Physics" say that 1) compared to an "open element" under the hood intake a "cold air" intake does help reduce the MAT and the EGT some but... 2) you'll see little if any reduction during a short duration event such as a drag race! The reason is due to the "heat capacity" of the IC and a 6.0L IC which I think you guys probably have has an even larger "thermal mass"= "heat capacity" than a 7.3L IC has.

Instead of quoting from my numerous posts where I reported on my measured performance difference of an "open element" under the hood intake versus a true "cold" air intake I'll quote from this link... http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbotech/main.htm ...which was provided by "Pocket" in the thread below... More info than you ever want to know about a turbo... https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/7...ml#post6157411

Well down into the reference link you'll find this section... "There are some useful equations which will help us understand the factors involved in transferring heat." ...this is where he begins talking about IC performance ... "This overall heat transfer equation shows us how to get better intercooler performance ...if you know the amount of heat transferred, the inlet temperature, and the flow rate you can calculate the outlet temperature. Since you can't measure everything, this equation is used to figure out what you don't know."

...if you study these equations it's clear that a higher "inlet temperature" into the IC causes a higher "outlet temperature" from the IC and his turbo equations at the beginning of the reference show that a higher "inlet temperature" into the turbo due to an "open element" under the hood intake causes a higher "outlet temperature" from the turbo which means a higher "inlet temperature" into the IC!

...immediately following the above is the key point concerning the IC's "heat capacity"..."These equations are all for steady state heat transfer, which we probably don't really see too much under the conditions that we are most interested in - drag race! ...The material of the intercooler itself will rise in temperature when you hit full throttle, absorbing more heat than what these equations would lead you to believe."

..."For example, at steady state idle the intercooler body may be at 100 deg F. At steady state full throttle it may be 175 deg F. The energy it takes to heat it up to that temperature comes from the turbo outlet air, and so the cooling of that air is what is removed by both the flowing outside air and the absorption of the intercooler body. How long does it take to get to the new steady state?"

...and the answer to that last question depends on the "thermal mass"= "heat capacity" of the IC which for a diesel is much larger than the IC "heat capacity" of the gasser being analyzed and measured in the reference!

If you put a cup of water in the microwave oven and measure its temperature after only 10 seconds then again several minutes later you'll see a big difference! Claiming no EGT difference during a drag race is kind of like saying a microwave oven doesn't increase the temperature of water because you didn't see any temperature increase after only 10 seconds!

Based on some thermal analysis and the following observation with my Freightliner I estimate that it takes several minutes of operation at high BP before the "outlet temperature" from the IC reaches the new steady state value. On my Freightliner I've now got a real-time readout of my MAT, BP, and all the other sensors and when I start up a long steady grade the MAT doesn't initially increase very much even though the BP is high but then the MAT slowly increases at a constant BP and after I've been pulling for a mile or so at the same BP the MAT eventually reaches a new "steady state" equilibrium value!

So the bottom line is that a "cold air" intake does help reduce the MAT and the EGT some but you only see this benefit while towing a load up a long steady grade which is all that I've ever claimed!

So why did I tow heavy in the mountains for 3 years with an "open element" under the hood intake and send my poor turbo to an early grave? The reason is that I "blindly" followed the advice of self proclaimed "experts" instead of trying to understand the "Physics" of the problem which is the recommendation I gave here that started this discussion to begin with!

 

Ernest, no one is arguing that fact. We all know and understand the importance of cold air.

The entire point of this is that you are basing everything on the assumption that the 6637 is drawing in much much hotter air than any other filter setup. This is simply not true and is something that everyone is trying to tell you. Underhood airflow is something you are not considering, and that the air temperature next to the filter is nearly the same as ambient air temps - which is why people keep reporting again and again that their intake air temps with the 6637 are within a few degrees of ambient air temps.

All of your equations, although technically correct, are applied completely wrong if you assume the wrong information. In this case, you assume that the 6637 draws in hot air, but people who are actually tracking temperatures are not seeing this in real life. Basically what I am saying is that you are missing important pieces of the puzzle here that you are not taking into consideration.

 

There is less then 2 degrees differance from my testing in underhood and outside air temps when underway...

What intake would you recomend for the 7.3L

 

I never assume anything that I can easily measure and as shown below engine compartment temperature can be easily measured by anyone using a Radio Shack wireless thermometer...



But I'm not going to rehash all of my engine compartment temperature measurements because no one seems to believe them anyway just like when I reported my measurements of excessive crankcase pressure with the CCV routed to the exhaust and no one believed those until I got Jeremy to do the measuring and then everyone was convinced that I'd been right all along!

Instead here's a link to an independent source of data that Tenn took using AE... https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6...tion-data.html ...and I'll also show it below so you can easily see for yourself that his AIT sensor which was zip tied right next to his 6637 near the fuse box where my wireless thermometer was located read 145 F which is 54 F higher than the 91 F ambient temperature and this was while towing a fairly light load on the interstate and that's nothing like pulling a maximum load up a 6% grade where you'll see much higher engine compartment temperatures! This is some of the data that Tenn (Mike) logged during his 6637 testing ...



Ok now lets examine another independent source of data from the Dale Isley Tymar Performance web site along with my comments which I'll quote from a previous thread...

...It would be far more enlightening if the Tymar Performance web site would just give the raw data like Tenn did so we could see the actual temperature increase for Huston instead of averaging the Huston temperature with Spokane temperature to get a lower "average value" to list on their site!

...Even if you take this obviously contrived sales pitch at face value and you experience a "hot/cold average" 45 F rise while staging for a drag race or a sled pull and then suck in that hot air which is about 9% less dense than ambient you'll definitely reduce your off the line acceleration!

...This isn't a performance issue for driving to Wal-Mart but over time even 4% less dense air means your turbo compressor wheel has to spin 4% faster to flow 4% more CFM to get the same MAF as you'd get with a cold air intake and this extra wear on the turbo bearing is why a "cold" air intake is better than an "open element filter"!

Now lets talk about the "Physics" of what determines the temperature in the engine compartment. Since the stock Ford setup forces 100% of the ambient air to flow through the restriction of the hot AC condenser, the hot IC, and the even hotter radiator before entering the engine compartment it's hard for me to see how anyone can possibly expect that it's only 2 F hotter in the engine compartment than the outside ambient air temperature!

As a point of reference a 1500 Watt heater is all it takes to keep my new 40 ft 5er a nice warm 75 F inside for outside temperatures as low as 45 F so no one should be surprised if putting a 1500 Watt heater inside their truck's cab on a summer day with the windows rolled up (which is what the sun is doing) will make it quite hot in there and I've read about temperatures approaching 200 F! I refuse to actually make this measurement because I use sun screens so I don't over heat my electronics!

Here's another point of reference a 1500 Watt heater puts out the same amount of heat as 2 HP of waste heat from the engine. Your PSD is about 33% efficient which means when it generates 60 HP at the flywheel for a drive to Wal-Mart it's putting out about 120 HP of waste heat in the process with about 60 HP going to the coolant and the other 60 HP going out the exhaust. That's the same amount of heat as from 60 1500 Watt heaters!

Well the 60 HP to the coolant winds up as hot air coming back into the engine compartment from the radiator, and a lot of the 60 HP going out the exhaust winds up heating the exhaust manifolds and the turbo case which radiates back into the engine compartment like a cast iron wood stove! Then consider the waste heat from the A/C condenser and the IC which also winds up in the engine compartment. And you claim it's only 2 F hotter in there than ambient!!!

Now consider that these above waste heat HP numbers double when towing and triple when towing up a grade! After you tow for several hours the engine compartment experiences a steady state "heat soak" condition where the "thermal mass" of the block, coolant, alternator, and all the other engine compartment components reach equilibrium. When pulling a long grade the engine compartment air temperature reaches 205 F and this triggers the bimetal spring in the radiator fan clutch into a full lockup mode!

Why did Ford even bother with a radiator fan lockup clutch that engages at a 205 F air temperature if the engine compartment never gets 2 F hotter than ambient??? Well I guess that's just one more of life's many mysteries!

 

I have another exhaust deal coming up soon. Shoot me a pm and I will see what I can do for you early.

 

...I just Googled "engine compartment temperature" and did some casual reading. Below is a quick sample of what you'll find and I did the temperature conversion F=(9/5)C+32 for you.

...The last two items demonstrate that the Duramax Diesel and the Cummins Diesel powered pickups clearly have issues concerning hot engine compartments so maybe they need to hire this Ford engineer who designed the Power Stroke Diesel to put out such a small amount of heat ENERGY that its engine compartment never gets 2 F hotter than ambient!

Enviromental Testing Information | Combined environmental testing for equipment used on automobiles
...the temperature in the engine compartment gets up to around 100 C=212 F, it goes over 65 C=149 F in the trunk, and can hit 100 C=212 F at sites such as the instrument panel in the vehicle interior.

...Newer model vehicles have to cope with greater heat output due to equipment such as DOHC and turbochargers. The increased heat means that temperatures of 120 C=248 F must be handled.

...When the car is parked under a blazing sun and the passenger cabin is shut tight, the car becomes like a sun room. The temperature climbs to around 110 C=230 F to 120 C=248 F.

A MEMS Gyro for the Harsh Engine Compartment Environment - Sensors
...Use of vehicular electronic stability controls is growing. A new quartz MEMS gyroscope can handle the harsh under-hood environment, where temperatures exceed 125 C=257 F and shock and vibration are significant.

I need to find an adhesive to bond a high density foam hood pad - JustAnswer
...Depending on the type of vehicle, most engine compartments can excede 250 degrees degress, so make sure it is rated for at least that.

Duramax overheating
...Suncoast Automotive Performance has developed a set of Ram Air Hoods with the help and at the request of General Motors to help increased performance and engine cooling in their 2003 and up Duramax Diesel applications!

...The GM engineers did not want to take on the unknowns of reconfiguring the intake so they simply recommend (and tested) the cooler ram air exiting the hood channel above the OEM air box so that the excess ram air could cool the engine compartment. They recorded lower intake air temperatures in this configuration and also lower engine compartment temperatures when traveling down the road.

http://www.psmdiesel.com/air_intake94.php
...Dodge/Cummins Cold Air Intake System ...The air box is exposed to severe heat radiating from the close proximity of the turbocharger and exhaust manifold so the importance of getting colder intake air to the turbocharger was critical.

...Our Cowl Duct air intake provides the coolest air to the turbocharger and is the only commercially available “true cold air” intake that is tested and proven to provide cooler air to the turbocharger and engine.

 

The war is raging!! Just gets me all excited to get my AE this summer so I can test stuff too!!!

To the OP definatly get an exhaust as soon as possible that will help alot with the EGTs

Good Luck!!
Andrew

 

Ernest, if you don't like the 6637 then that's fine. But there are countless people in the PSD world running this filter and others like it without problems. You keep trying to prove that there is something wrong with this filter, yet your math doesn't correspond with real world results. You have never even run this filter yourself, yet you keep arguing against it.

On a side note, you did not blow up your turbo with a 6637. Back in the day your truck ran a K&N filter. Yes these are both "open element designs". You also said originally years ago that you lost your turbo due to surge, then later also hinted at dusting issues with the K&N filter.

Now you are saying that hot engine compartment air destroyed your turbo. So which is it?

To date, most aftermarket intakes for the 7.3L are the same. Not one single manufacturer has yet made a true cold air intake for our trucks. So picking out the 6637 filter or other open element filters as the bad choice in the bunch makes no sense, since they are all very similar to each other. Some setups may have a shroud around them, but that shroud doesn't do much at all for keeping heat off the filters, so essentially they all work about the same. The Ford AIS is the only one with a closed box design (yet it's still not a cold air intake), and it's fine for stock or mildly modified trucks. But you won't see a single high HP truck with that intake, it's just too restrictive for high power applications. For most people and towing, it's a great intake though and I still have no problem recommending that one.

As for surge and intakes, surge happens on stock intakes or any other setups. Adding a chip makes surge worse, especially in the mountains. My parents still have a stock intake box on their truck (and stock exhaust), and they encounter huge surge issues when they come to Colorado thanks to the high altitude. Empty they get surge with their chip on. While towing, they get surge even in stock programming. You can see it on the boost gauge, but with the stock box it's almost impossible to hear. I had the exact same results on my truck back when I ran the stock turbo. I had a different intake though (the 6637). The only difference was I could hear the surge, but the surge was identical to my parent's truck. So intake had nothing to do with it.

As for dusting issues, well most people here aren't fans of K&N anyway. There have been much much less reports of dusting issues with any other filter than K&N. So I think the PSD world has figured out the major source of dusting issues.

Ernest, I'm sorry but real world results with open element intakes are much different than your equations are showing. People are using this type of setup in their trucks with much success. The proof is on the street.

That's all I have to say. For those that read this thread you can make your own judgement call. Just about everyone who runs the 6637 filter recommend it to others. Ernest has never run the 6637 filter, and if the 6637 was really a problem, we would see a rash of turbo failures related directly to that filter. As for other brands, well they all function just about the same. As I mentioned before, no one has offered a true cold air intake for our trucks, so we are limited on choices of intakes. The ones currently on the market work just fine.