what i find funny is you jump to that exact idea,you dont know why ive lost freinds over it! they thought exacty like you do that its a bad thing and that it symalizes slavery(witch it dont) and they where weak enuff to not listen or read the papers ive printed and hung rite below them. the way i look at it if they are like that i dont need'm as freinds any way they can go about there yankee way of life just fine with out me. as for the OP we are ONLY the same in the fact we are people and breath air and walk on 2 feet after that we are not the same. look up same in websters

 

Wow, what a topic! Lots of opinions flying around here. Some say we are all the same. Some say we are different. I say I am no better or worse than anyone else. I'll share my story. I am of Hispanic descent. I was born and raised on Long Island, NY which is a very diverse area. 18 months ago, my family and I moved to central Pa. to an area where I think I am the only non white person around. I did feel intimidated and I am ashamed to say that. I have come to learn that people are people no matter where you live. I thought I was surrounded by hillbillies. But now I see that they are my neighbors. They are friendly with me just like they are with everyone else. I feel very safe and secure living where I do. Racism is a very sneaky thing. I must admit that I was racist against the locals when I first moved here. But I have learned that when you look past appearances, you can form your own opinion about individual people. Please don't group people together and say they all are bad, dangerous, drug addicts, thieves, etc. we can't change our neighbors. We can, however change ourselves. By opening my mind, I was able to settle in and enjoy my new life in a beautiful new place. It sounds corny, but I love driving thru my neighborhood and waving to people cause thats what we do around here.

 

Yea, please explain that to the families of the 2755 people that died on 9-11-01.

 

I'm still wondering what Wizzard said in his post to prompt this appalling attack on a fellow FTE member......

OK....This is pretty much an unqualified statement of tolerance that you just made.....



Followed by the qualifier 'unless you happen to believe that........'

Followed by a demand......

Whatever....

And Wizzard isn't?

More tolerance?

You read a HELLUVA lot into what Wizzard said.....It's also obvious from the way you overreacted to his (short) post that you have some serious issues to deal with. It's ALSO obvious that you're not interested in any kind of debate regarding race. You have a 'story' to tell regarding your views on race, but guess what.....You really don't know anyone here, I'd surmise, and maybe THEY ALSO have a story to tell regarding what 'colors' their own views.

But flying off the handle like you did....so far as I can see by Wizzard mentioning having a confederate flag and losing friends over it.....showed a lack of class.......and bragging on the thread about negative-repping another member put the nail in that coffin.

Wizzard showed a helluva lot more 'tolerance' in dealing with the way you addressed him than I would have if you talked to me like that.

 

My interpretation of Graywolf's post was this primary assertion: "What is the difference between black, white, red, yellow, or tan? If there is no difference - there isn't one")

Wizzard clearly states that he has a problem with with that assertion.





To be honest, I really don't understand what he means here. Basics? I think maybe he concedes that yes, we are all of the same species, but I can't be certain because this really isn't stated clearly. He does say that we are different in many ways, which I took to mean different in our behaviors and actions but I suppose he could have meant height, weight, eye color, etc. So, either way, this is certainly a valid statement. We are all different in our actions, behaviors, weight, blood pressure, hair color etc., even though we are all of the same species.





Stating clearly that most folks can't handle his beliefs. He feels the need to stop there because his beliefs are contrary to that of most folks. The strongest belief he stated clearly was that he had trouble agreeing with GW's original assertion.





Thus far the discussion has been about, in essence, racial equality. Wizzard brings the "rebel" flag into the picture and claims he has lost friends over the flag. At no point are state's rights mentioned. The logical assumption is that his rebel flag is associated with his problem with GW's premise.

Frankly, the last time I heard any kind of debate about state's rights vs. federal regulation (in terms of the southern states seccession from the union) was in like, 10th grade. I have heard many arguments about state's rights since than, but they dealt with the 2nd amendment, abortion, No Child Left Behind, and the ilk. Nothing seccession-worthy, anyway.

I would sincerely like to read somebody else's translation of Wizzard's post that drew a conclusion other than the one I drew.

Please provide the logic for any alternate interpretations of his post.



As for my response, I will freely admit to "getting up on a soapbox". It is a tendency I have towards what I, and many people I know, believe to be racist comments.

For too many years in this country (and most others, for that matter) racism has been tolerated by a silent group of people. That group of folks used to be the minority. I truly believe that the silent group is now in the majority. That is to say that most people are not racist. And, thankfully, fewer and fewer of them are remaining silent about the matter when it rears its ugly head and they will one day become a vocal majority and we can finally stamp out racism in this country. I admit to not having statistics to back up that claim. I just know that we have done away with formal segregation and, by all accounts, informal segregation is on the wane.



Sure I had a story to tell. It was the story of how a young man was basically indoctrinated with racist beliefs by his parents and had his eyes opened to the reality of the situation by his experiences one summer. My actual experiences disproved the beliefs I had picked up from my parents. I thought it was worthwhile to provide an actual, factual basis for what I do not believe, but know, to be true: Skin color has absolutely nothing to do with one's worth as a human being. One's actions (more so) and words (less so) have everything to do one's worth as a contributing member of a civilized society.



Now, if there is a way to automatically include the quotes of multiple posters in a single reply, I don't know it. So I am not going to start another whole response to reply to cmpd to address each of his statements about me. I'll just try to do them in order of their appearance.



1. Above, I just explained what Wizzard said that set me off.



2. Not sure how to answer this one. I support someone's religious beliefs no matter what they may be, as long as they do not directly negatively affect other humans.
I support a parent's belief that corporal punishment for their child is appropriate as long as they (the parent) do not directly negatively affect other humans. Of course this means causing physical and psychological damage to the child by the misuse of spanking.
I support someone's political beliefs whether or not they are the same as mine.

I think you get the idea about what I meant by supporting peoples right to believe what they want.

Yes, I did qualify it. Just as I would have great difficulty supporting someones belief that the sky is orange when everyone else can see that it is blue. Or that water isn't wet. Or that animals don't have fur. Or that someone invented a carburetor in the 60's that gets 100 mpg, but the whole thing was snuffed out by big oil.

Just like these above statements are nonsense and insupportable, so is the belief that skin color has anything to do with anything.

3. Yes, I demanded him to take down that silly flag. I apologize. I had no inkling that he displayed it proudly (in his garage) in support of state's rights.
So for that, I am sorry.

4. I was very sincere. Sincerity indicates that one truly meant what he or she wrote. I did, with the exception of the flag thing, now that I understand that he is a supporter of state's rights.

5. Of course he is a member of the human race. I don't see how it could be interpreted that I meant that he was subhuman or anything else. If I thought that I would have said it. But, to anyone else who interpreted that statement as implying that Wizzard was not of the human race, I do apologize.

6. cmpd's closing comments covered a lot of ground:

Tolerance? No. No tolerance for racism.

"Serious problems"? To quote the governor of Alaska: "You betcha!" I have very serious problems with racism and what is has done and continues to do to the forward progress of this country.

And, I thought we were debating race. If I wasn't interested, I would never have replied at all.

If you like, I'll gladly start a new thread that specifically address the "debate" as to whether or not the color of one's skin is indicative of one's worth. Better yet, you go ahead and start it. I'll be sure to post my opinion. But it will be pretty boring, because I'll just say I disagree. I won't offer any rationale for my beliefs, because nobody else can offer valid rationale that skin color does indicate one's worth.

I most certainly did not intend for it to sound like I was bragging that I gave negative reps. My apologies for it appearing so. I intended it to be indicative of the egregiousness of Wizzards comments; statements that I found so abhorrent that, for the first time ever, I actually negatively repped someone.

From now on (and I hope I never am so inclined again) anytime I negatively rep someone, I'll do it on the sly. Maybe they'll never look at their cp and will never know.

Lastly, a lack of "class"? I'll admit that I was vehement in my statements. I'll admit that my demand that he "take down that silly flag" was incendiary, and now that I know he flies it in support of states rights I have before, and will again now, apologize.

But a lack of "class"? Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And therefore I do apologize for not being classier in my response. Seriously. I was hot. I know that doesn't make it right, and thus I have apologized.

I will endeavor to be classier in future correspondence.



So, to recap what eventually turned out to be a much longer post than I had intended (because I read and re-read everything trying to root out mistakes and to ensure clarity as best I can):

In my opinion, I correctly interpreted Wizzards statements to be interpreted as:

a) he disagrees with GW's premise that color of skin has nothing to do with anything; that, at the root, we are all the same in that we share the same basic human emotions and desires.

b) people he knows have trouble with his beliefs about race.

c) he flies a rebel flag in his garage and has lost friends over that fact (although it is far more reasonable to associate the flag with his beliefs about race rather than his beliefs about state's rights, based on what he wrote)


Now, since my wife thinks I am up to some nefarious doings, spending all this time on the computer, I will gladly reply to any pm's anyone would like to send my way.
I like to think I have adequately answered all the concerns about my response to Wizzard's post. But if I haven't, please pm me.

PS: to 95CobraR: if your post was in response to mine, I don't have any idea what you mean by that. If it was intended for Graywolf, then he'll have to answer it.

 

The world is made up of some 6-billion people. Those 6-billion can probably give you 6-billion different opinions. There's probably a HELLUVA lot of people who would have a problem with Greywolf's assertion. For one thing, it's kind of Pollyanish and unscientific.


(Snip)

It sounded to ME like Wizzard was being polite, assumed some folks couldn't handle his opinion, and out of concern that some people here would get offended, stated that he would defer further commentary on his opinion of the matter......

Obviously this wasn't enough for you.....You got offended......

I took the OP to mean that there were no real biological differences....That we were all basically the same, and differences could solely be pointed to stuff like culture, learned behaviors, etc.....

In any event, it was about race. Wizzard apparently didn't totally agree with GW. Wizzard apparently knows that race is an explosive issue to discuss. Wizzard brought up his hesitation to go into detail. Wizzard apparently brought up the rebel flag and the loss of several friends as an illustration on how a) explosive the racial issue is, and b) the mere presence of a rebel flag can actually lose friendships.

Whatever Wizzard thinks about the flag (states rights, whatever) is immaterial.....To those who find the mere presence of the flag offensive, it is about one thing and one thing only---racism.

I'm sure Wizzard will correct my interpretation of his post if he feels it warrants correction.

(Snip)

Please see above.

Logic?

Wizzard (apparently) is of the opinion that there ARE biological differences between races......Thinks some people can't handle this opinion....and likes to hang the stars & bars in his garage.............What's the big deal? It's his OPINION......

Regarding biological differences......There ARE some.....For instance.....Certain races are more prone (in some cases, almost exclusively so) to certain diseases.......

That doesn't denote superiority or inferiority....but it DOES refute the notion that all differences end at the level of the skin......

(You)
"But you, sir, infuriate me. You, and people like you, disgust me. The ignorance of racists, frankly, astounds me! I am a big fan of the personal right of one to believe what he or she may believe, but the belief that the color of a human beings skin determines their worthiness to exist on this planet in peace and in the pursuit of their personal happiness, is indefensible.
Indefensible. Indefensible!!!"


This goes beyond 'soapboxing' and into the realm of insult....

And where did Wizzard (or anyone else) make comments about judging persons' worthiness to exist in 'peace' and 'personal happiness'?

(Snip)

Sounds like you should address your anger towards your parents, then......I didn't see where Wizzard was trying to indoctrinate anyone......


(Snip)

OK....'debate'.......Basically telling someone that they disgust you and their beliefs (or at least perceived beliefs....Wizzard didn't go into detail) are indefensible....is not a debate.....THAT'S trying to shut off any contrary to yours, or offensive to you........

Did you really try to 'debate' Wizzard there? Think about it.

I'm still trying to find the 'egregiousness' of the Wiz........It's not like he said black people were less intelligent and more suited to farm labor.....Although based on your response....I had to go back and make sure he didn't say anything like that.....

Nope....He didn't.....



(Snip)

 

Well, Steve, it is clear that you and I interpreted Wizzard's post entirely differently.
So be it.
I will never convince you that my interpretation is accurate nor will you convince me that yours is.
Since we are, for the most part, the only two involved in the conversation at this point I would call it an impasse.
Good day.

 

Good day......Nothing personal.......For or against either you or Wizzard.......

Again, good day.

 

Steve hit the nail rite dead square on its head!!