289 problems advice needed...
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 149
Likes: 1
289 problems advice needed...
We recently assembled a 289 with 302 heads. We are having weird issues this week.
We have had this engine in the garage in our 62 Falcon idling just fine. We can rev the motor to 3000 to 4000 RPM's and it runs and sounds great. Last night I backed it out of the garage for the first time to take it for a test drive. As soon as I tried to drive it I started getting a lot of clacking in the motor. It sounds like an issue with the pushrods or lifters or something like that. The strange part is it would idle in the garage without issues for 10-15 minutes. But once I put the engine under a load it sound terrible. Let it cool down and put it back in the garage and purrs like a kitten again. Back it out of the driveway again and it starts all over again.
I am clueless to the problem.... any advice?
Craig
We have had this engine in the garage in our 62 Falcon idling just fine. We can rev the motor to 3000 to 4000 RPM's and it runs and sounds great. Last night I backed it out of the garage for the first time to take it for a test drive. As soon as I tried to drive it I started getting a lot of clacking in the motor. It sounds like an issue with the pushrods or lifters or something like that. The strange part is it would idle in the garage without issues for 10-15 minutes. But once I put the engine under a load it sound terrible. Let it cool down and put it back in the garage and purrs like a kitten again. Back it out of the driveway again and it starts all over again.
I am clueless to the problem.... any advice?
Craig
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2004
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289s used adjustable stud-mount rockers. Later 302s used pedastal mounts that just torque down, no adjustment. I'm not sure if pushrod length is an issue or the lifters themselves, or both. The length of the valves may also come into this. So if you've mixed 289 pushrods with later 302 valves and rockers, that might be something to look at.
Some discussion here, note reference to correct pushrod length with pedestal mounts.
http://forums.stangnet.com/398506-st...der-heads.html
Note adjustability for pedestal types offered:
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...rt=CRN-99170-1
There are a couple of guys on here that have been elbow-deep in these motors more recently than I, so you may get some more and/or better clues.
Some discussion here, note reference to correct pushrod length with pedestal mounts.
http://forums.stangnet.com/398506-st...der-heads.html
Note adjustability for pedestal types offered:
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...rt=CRN-99170-1
There are a couple of guys on here that have been elbow-deep in these motors more recently than I, so you may get some more and/or better clues.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 149
Likes: 1
ok. we have a 289 out of a 67 mustang. My kid took the 302 heads off a 1976 Mercury Monarch. My son thought that this was a safe configuration to put together.
I think we have a set of 289 heads laying around that we can try on this car if this is the issue.
Craig
I think we have a set of 289 heads laying around that we can try on this car if this is the issue.
Craig
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2004
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The old Moan-arc...
Do those use a pedestal? If so, if you used the 289 pushrods, maybe that's it.
Hold the phone though, those other fellows may shed some light here and help you avoid a teardown.
Were those heads sound? Rebuilt with springs good for 7000 rpm and proper teflon seals (or similar)?
A 289 of that vintage will rev to 5500 rpm with a large 2bbl. Those Moaners probably never saw 4000....
Please stand by....
Do those use a pedestal? If so, if you used the 289 pushrods, maybe that's it.
Hold the phone though, those other fellows may shed some light here and help you avoid a teardown.
Were those heads sound? Rebuilt with springs good for 7000 rpm and proper teflon seals (or similar)?
A 289 of that vintage will rev to 5500 rpm with a large 2bbl. Those Moaners probably never saw 4000....
Please stand by....
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,530
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The others I reference may know more about those heads regarding the ports. It appears they may have a larger intake than the '67 heads. (1.78/1.45 vs. 1.67/1.45) See the chart:
Cylinder-Head Casting Numbers
Carb is a little big at 600, as this engine will only flow 460 cfm at 5500 rpm at 100% volumetric efficiency, which means at the usual VE of 80% about 368 cfm. ( I had a 390 4bbl on mine)
Stock cam?
Headers?
Ignition upgrades?
Stock pistons?
Anyway, more later on the pushrod subject.
Cylinder-Head Casting Numbers
Carb is a little big at 600, as this engine will only flow 460 cfm at 5500 rpm at 100% volumetric efficiency, which means at the usual VE of 80% about 368 cfm. ( I had a 390 4bbl on mine)
Stock cam?
Headers?
Ignition upgrades?
Stock pistons?
Anyway, more later on the pushrod subject.
FTE Legend
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 31,930
Likes: 1,499
From: Ottawa, Ontario
This is a tough one to say for sure, but the bottom line is.. did the rockers torque down to spec as laid out in a shop or engine rebuilding manual? Does the 289 have hydraulic or solid lifters? What cam is in it? Do the pistons have valve eyebrows?
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 149
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Need to get you guys some more info...
the rockers were torqued to spec....the 289 has hydraulic lifters. It does have a cam but we do not know what size it is. It is something aftermarket. It currently has 302 push rods in it...
first the heads were not off the moan arch... they were off a 70 mustang 302 and they were supposely rebuilt and they have bolt down style rockers.
The 289 block is bored .40 over and the pistons have valve release.
let me know if you need any more info.
Craig
the rockers were torqued to spec....the 289 has hydraulic lifters. It does have a cam but we do not know what size it is. It is something aftermarket. It currently has 302 push rods in it...
first the heads were not off the moan arch... they were off a 70 mustang 302 and they were supposely rebuilt and they have bolt down style rockers.
The 289 block is bored .40 over and the pistons have valve release.
let me know if you need any more info.
Craig
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 31,930
Likes: 1,499
From: Ottawa, Ontario
Are you sure this isn't an exhaust leak, reving the motor in neutral doesn't put any load on it, but it will roll on the engine mounts when loaded in gear and this can create exhaust problems. Check to make sure the engine mounts are bolted to the block and frame properly, and try to recreate the problem by reving in gear with the brakes applied.
Ford Parts Specialist
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 88,826
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From: Simi Valley, CA
C2OZ-6565-B .. Pushrod - 6.825" long.
Fits: 1962/68 221/260/289 // 1968 302 before change L/4.
--------------------------------------------------------
C9OZ-6565-B .. Pushrod - 6.905" long / Use w/valve rocker arm bolt.
Fits: 1968 302 after change L/4 // 1969/76 302 // 1978/85 302 (w/o roller tappets).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C8OZ-6565-A .. Pushrod - 6.883" long / Use w/ valve rocker arm stud.
Fits: 1977/78 302.
Fits: 1962/68 221/260/289 // 1968 302 before change L/4.
--------------------------------------------------------
C9OZ-6565-B .. Pushrod - 6.905" long / Use w/valve rocker arm bolt.
Fits: 1968 302 after change L/4 // 1969/76 302 // 1978/85 302 (w/o roller tappets).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C8OZ-6565-A .. Pushrod - 6.883" long / Use w/ valve rocker arm stud.
Fits: 1977/78 302.
Cargo Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,232
Likes: 3
From: NE Texas
About the only thing more difficult to diagnose over the internet than noises is vibrations. I wish I could hear it.
The valve arrangement you describe from a 70 302 has stepped studs that tighten down with no adjustment. Does this noise sound lack valvetrain rattling? If it were misadjustment I would fully expect to hear it at idle.
Ski brings up a good possibility with the possible exhaust leak upon engine torquing.
Do you have an oil pressure gauge to ensure strong oil pressure?
The valve arrangement you describe from a 70 302 has stepped studs that tighten down with no adjustment. Does this noise sound lack valvetrain rattling? If it were misadjustment I would fully expect to hear it at idle.
Ski brings up a good possibility with the possible exhaust leak upon engine torquing.
Do you have an oil pressure gauge to ensure strong oil pressure?
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 149
Likes: 1
MBDiagMan,
I will take some video and post to youtube over the weekend.
I tried what one person recommended earlier. I put the car in drive and high idle in the garage and could not make it sound the same again. I will pull out of the garage again and grab some video to post.
Oil pressure looks fine too.....
Thanks for all your advice...
Craig
I will take some video and post to youtube over the weekend.
I tried what one person recommended earlier. I put the car in drive and high idle in the garage and could not make it sound the same again. I will pull out of the garage again and grab some video to post.
Oil pressure looks fine too.....
Thanks for all your advice...
Craig
Cargo Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,071
Likes: 36
From: British Columbia
Noisy engine
Did you make any other changes to the drivetrain besides the heads and top end swap? This is important to know to insure it isn't a clutch or torque convertor etc. issue.
As Number Dummy has pointed out, the push rod lengths differ over the years and application.
I think we haven't yet got the dope on what heads you really have. First they were 1976 Monarch, then 1970 Moustang. But the description of the latter is informative:
"...they were off a 70 mustang 302 and they were supposedly rebuilt and they have bolt down style rockers." [Italics mine]
What's important here is the bolt down style rockers. These can only be pedestal rocker arms which have been used since about 1979. This obviously is inconsistent with a 1970 Moustang. Since the pushrods should match the heads used, you therefore need to use C9OZ-6565-B pushrods listed by Number Dummy.
As Number Dummy has pointed out, the push rod lengths differ over the years and application.
I think we haven't yet got the dope on what heads you really have. First they were 1976 Monarch, then 1970 Moustang. But the description of the latter is informative:
"...they were off a 70 mustang 302 and they were supposedly rebuilt and they have bolt down style rockers." [Italics mine]
What's important here is the bolt down style rockers. These can only be pedestal rocker arms which have been used since about 1979. This obviously is inconsistent with a 1970 Moustang. Since the pushrods should match the heads used, you therefore need to use C9OZ-6565-B pushrods listed by Number Dummy.
Posting Guru
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,238
Likes: 0
From: Kiefer, Northeastern Okla
Proper valvetrain geometry is a must (pushrod length). BUT- a shot in the dark here-he said it runs and sounds fine in a no-load situation, up to about 4K, but under load it rattles. Sounds like a timing/vaccum problem to me, but that's JMHO. Preignition (and not enough octane) can sound a lot like valve rattle, which can go away once the engine cools. Another thought was maybe lifters collapsing, but I think you'd hear that even without driving it, if turning it 4K. Rev it a little louder, Craig, I can't hear it from here. 
Pete
On edit: Thanks, Bill, for posting those specs.....you da man...
Pete
On edit: Thanks, Bill, for posting those specs.....you da man...
Last edited by petes79f150; Dec 5, 2008 at 03:10 AM. Reason: Thanks to Bill