Changing out anything, besides wasting time, effort and money can mask
the real problem/s because you've disturbed things in the process. :/

Put a meter to it -first thing- while the trouble is there so it'll (they'll) be
easy to find! :) Why make the problem more trouble than it already is?

-------------------

The "S" terminal on the "starter relay" is for the wire from the ignition
switch to energize the coil on the starter relay. The "I" terminal is the
for the ignition circuit's "bypass" wire so the ignition circuit gets "full
battery" while the starter is drawing the battery down (~10+ volts) and
does this by bypassing the ignition's resistor.

Alvin in AZ

 

I know I didn't have to buy new cables, but it sure is a nice selling point when that prospect opens the hood and spots the bright shiny insulation.

"Yes, sir. I replaced those just the other day to ensure proper terminal connections and energy to the starter. It was no trouble at all. Just took a few minutes and I want to make sure everything works correctly for you."

Imagine if I had replaced those BEFORE this problem came up. I'd lose the buyer for sure.

 

[quote=Alvin in AZ;6859057]Changing out anything, besides wasting time, effort and money can mask
the real problem/s because you've disturbed things in the process. :/

Put a meter to it -first thing- while the trouble is there so it'll (they'll) be
easy to find! Why make the problem more trouble than it already is?

-------------------

This is so true, reading this and other posts ALVIN made me a believer in that reasoning and logic, which caused me to get that multimeter out and stop trouble shooting the issues as they come up. I also am taking fmc400's advise and getting myself a vacuum guage, (I got the timing light). I see where these three tools (inexpensive too) will answer so many problems and pay for themselves time and time again. THANKS ALVIN AND FMC400! You guys rock!!!,.....

 

Is it "pick on Hon" week? :)

I'm a weird SOB but that would look like "recent trouble" to me. :/
(my mom don't like it when I call myself an SOB;)

And, it sounds like simple "spin" after making a mistake to me too. :)

Sounds like salesman's bull$%!& to me. :)
That [bull]stuff doesn't work on me, does it work on you? ;)
Are you saying to the buyer...?
"you are so stupid, my salesman's bull$%!& should work on you"

Alvin in AZ
ps- "[Alvin] you're worthless as **** on a boar hog :/" -Mom
pps- So take it from my mom? You might not want to listen to me! LOL :)
ppps- Forget about using the meter, just change out the starter and battery...
"it'll look good to the buyer, even if it still won't start" LOL :)

 

I'm surprised nobody else has jumped on the "Pic on Hon" week bandwagon.

Oh, and about that salesman stuff. That IS my day job. I've been known to sell ice to an eskimo. Selling is a transference of feeling. If a prospect feels you have a good product that will benefit them at a reasonable price, then they will be more than happy to become buyers.

Yes, new cables do look like recent trouble. But, it also looks like a recent fix. Buyers want to know that the owner didn't defer maintenance. Yes, I'll chase it down with a meter this weekend. However, I consider the battery cable change maintenance and not necessarily the fix for this problem. Did I hope it fixed the problem? Absolutely! But, it didn't. I consider it $14 well spent.

 

That's because "Butthead in AZ" is doing such a good job all by himself! :)
BTW, being a pain in the *** is my day job. :)
It's what I'm best at. :/
I'm retired on disability with nothing better to do.
Hmmm... uhhhh... ok, got it.

Yeah. :)
That's the way to do it... fool 'em. ;)

I replaced the original cables that came with my pickup when I overhauled
the engine at 147,350 miles (20 years and 3 months) and they were still
working like new and looked dangged good too. Now -that- is maintenance.

I just -wanted- cables that were heavier than the original 8 gauge is all.

BTW, not taking care of the original cables and clamps ain't maintenance. ;)
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it" -said by the worse maintainers I ever knew

You asked.
I did my best to tell you how.
It's up to you to do it or not.
If you "spin" it, post excuses etc, I'll jump you for the fun of it. ;)
If you simply ignore my advice, there's nothing to jump you about.
See it? :)
If I'm quiet, it's the same as telling you I agree with you.
(or I'm too stinkin lazy to bother disagreeing with you)

It's your money and your pickup, do it however you want. :)

It's my brain and I prefer not to believe your salesman's bull$%& or spin.
Easy as that. :)

Hon, do you find it interesting, at all, that I picked up on your BS and spin
without knowing you were a salesman? LOL :)

Alvin in AZ

 

I like the way the irish travelers do their selling. They do their little schpiel, name the price, then shut up. They wait for the person to open their mouth and sell the product to themselves.

My excuse/salesman tactic for explaining new battery cables is this: I planned on upgrading my charging system to accommodate several new accessories, whats the point of doing all that if you are going to burn the vehicle down making that stuff breathe thru a straw and get hot/melt/ground?
[\salesman BS off]

Actually, new, larger gauge cables are the first thing on the list on every vehicle I own. Yeah, 8 gauge is sufficient when it was new, but I have seen these cables melt the insulation off when there is a problem. Also, larger cables promote easier starting, and extended starter life, especially in hot weather(or when the engine is warm), and when you have distributor issues, causing the motor to back up on the starter when its trying to get you going. Yeah, its masking the ignition problem, but at least now you have the upgraded wires to get you going, instead of having an electrical problem and being stuck till your truck cools off (Been there, done that.)

 

Got a question for you Alvin...

In your vast amount of experience and knowledge (which it sounds like you have a lot), have you ever fixed a problem with replacing a part and found that the whole system starts failing in other areas?

For instance, in my situation I find that the battery cables are faulty so I purchase new ones and replace them. The truck works for a while, then suddenly one day the truck doesn't start. I use the meter to find the problem (as suggested by my friend Alvin) and now it's the relay. Replace it and something else fails....... Pretty soon, you've replaced the whole system.

Ever see that happen with these 30 year old trucks?

 

Nope. :)

BTW Hon, just for your information, you are talking to the dumbest
guy on FTE! :) I dug ditches and climbed poles for a living. LOL :)

So, you -did- find both cables faulty! :) Cool. :)

You made it sound like "a guess" in your first post about the new
cables and I ***-sumed they were replaced -after- my post. :/
Did I tell you I was the dumbest guy on FTE?

In what way were they "faulty" and what were the meter readings? :)

------------------------------

What's wrong with the relay?
Bad starter contact?
What voltage was it getting at its "S" terminal?
(the negative side of the relay's pickup coil is the relay's own base:)

Did you test for its connection to the negative side of the battery by
putting the negative meter lead on the relay's base and reading the
voltage at the "S" terminal? The trick is to put the meter down -any-
where you can in the particular circuit that's acting up. You don't know
what you are going to find until you find it. ;)

Something else is messed up now besides the relay? :/
Which circuit is it this time? :)
What'd the meter find? :)

What's the voltage on the "resting" battery's posts?

There is only so many things that can be wrong with the starting circuit
and if you're willing to stick with it... we'll find all of them, using a simple
volt meter! :) What DC scale does your meter have? Test your leads using
the oms scale. When you get a voltage reading you don't like, blow on the
meter's face to clear the static before trusting the reading.

Does the meter "zero" when laid on its back or when standing up or both?

Alvin in AZ
ps- My '75 has never broke down and left me stranded anywhere, ever.
pps- Drove it home to Bowie AZ, February 14, 1975 I was 22 years old.
ppps- My insurance man told me not to pay cash for it, "borrow the
money against your account (dummy:)" -Jimmy Reed

 

Got the truck up and running yesterday afternoon.

I dug the meter out on Saturday and spent the afternoon testing, retesting, second guessing and testing some more. I was doing it by myself so it took 2-3 times as long because I didn't have confidence that the probes had a good enough connection, etc. However, I finally decided that it had to be in the ignition switch.

I bought the part late Saturday evening and installed it yesterday after church. That old beast fired off on the first try of the switch. What a glorious sound that was!

Now, I've got someone coming to make an offer on her. She'll be missed, but she's costing too much sitting on the driveway.

 

Cool! :)

That's the way to do it. :)

So what happened?
Were you getting no (or low?) voltage on the "S" terminal of the starter relay?
(this is the part where you "pay it forward" ;)

Were there times when the relay would pick-up (its coil would energize) and
act like it was trying to start? or what?

Alvin in AZ

 

I should have taken notes so that I could remember the test results. I did so many tests and retests on Saturday that the results all run together in my mind.

I do remember getting no juice at the relay, but I couldn't be sure because I was doing the test by myself and couldn't garuntee the connection of my probes. I was able to set my meter on the air cleaner lid and view it from the cab while I was turning the switch.

I finally jumped the S terminal to the positive batter cable at the relay and got the starter to crank. So, I knew at that point that I could get juice through the relay to the starter. But there was no juice in front of the relay, so an educated guess was that the ignition switch was faulty.



On another note, I priced out the relay and the switch at the same time. I told the kid who answered the phone at AutoZone that I needed a starter relay for my truck. After a series of questions that didn't make a bit of difference as to the parts I needed, he said their isn't a relay for that truck. I said, "Buddy, it's on my truck of which I am standing beside look at." His reply, "I'm sorry, but my computer doesn't show there to be a starter relay on that truck."

I finally told him to just look up a starter solenoid (language I previous and erroniously used in this thread). His reply: "Yeah, I got one of those, but no relay." Just to make sure, I gave him the part number to cross reference.

I think every auto parts employee needs to spend 40 hours training on a pre-1985 vehicle just so they can understand a person when they call or visit the store!

 

Wikipedia:
"In engineering, the term solenoid may also refer to a variety of transducer
devices that convert energy into linear motion. The term is also often used
to refer to a solenoid valve, which is an integrated device containing an
electromechanical solenoid which actuates either a pneumatic or hydraulic
valve, or a solenoid switch, which is a specific type of relay that internally
uses an electromechanical solenoid to operate an electrical switch; for
example, an automobile starter solenoid, or a linear solenoid, which is an
electromechanical solenoid."

Typically:
A solenoid moves something besides electrical contact/s.
A relay doesn't move anything other than electrical contact/s.

(I know that's not all there is to it, but it's close enough?;)

Anyway, Ford calls it what it really is... a relay. :)

But who the hell as ever heard of a "starter relay" that hasn't heard of a
"starter solenoid" a 100 times over? :/

The kid is doing the best he can with what he's got to work with...
the supplied AutoZone computer and his "young 'n' dumb" brain. :)

"doggonit, I went from young 'n' dumb straight to old and stupid...
what happened to the smart part? :/" -Alvin

----------------------------

Educated by the meter kind of guess, that one? ;)
LOL :)
Beats the crap out of going at it blind folded, huh. ;)

As far as doing stuff like that by yourself, all you need is ingenuity. ;)

Alvin in AZ