Injecting the hydrogen directly into the fuel line?

How does a gas and a liquid mix? It won't.

I smell something fishy here...

 

I dunno either. Just reporting what I read on the website. We'll know more in July, I guess!

 

Ya, I can't really see how that would work. I could see an issue with gas pockets causing problems with the fuel pump and fuel delivery conisitency. Like when you first turn on your garden hose, water and air spurts out of the end of the hose until all of the air clears. Imagine that happening with your injectors.

EDIT: Just thought about it and I think we have a tank based pump that pushes, not pull, so the pump should be a non-issue.

 

You might be able to dissolve hydrogen in gasoline. Much like a bottle of soda doesn't fizz until you depressurize it.

One of the problem with hydrogen production is electrolysis takes more (or the same? - I forget) energy to break water into O2 and hydrogen than you get out of burning it afterwards.

So, put more load on the alternator, to produce a slight amount of energy from the hydrogen.

Not having gone into the system that's been described, I don't see the "net" energy being a plus.

 

I can see how that is possible but not without major modification to the fuel system as a whole.

As far as energy input/output...yes, I would say the process of making/using HHO is not overly efficient and if you just look at the HHO process it would probably not result in any gain but there is one thing in my mind that separates this from a "lab" type environment measureing input vs output results. That is the fact that on our engines, the alternator spins all the time, producing electricity. Not all of that electricity is used by the system all the time.

Also we are not running our vehicles on pure Hydrogen. We are using the Hydrogen as a catalyst to more completely burn the fuel that is already being injected into the engine and exhausted unburnt. If you were just to take the energy supplied by the HHO you would get a negative result I think. But, when you add the otherwise unused diesel, we get into the positive.

Ultimately, this will be an easy thing to measure, just by tracking MPG. It's the only input other than the cost of the generator. The cost of the fuel is the same either way.

So the math would look like this.....

Today we calculate the cost of driving with:

(Fuel_price$) / MPG = $/G

Tomorrow we will do the same calculation:

((Gen_Parts_Price$) / (Lifespan_of_Parts)) / (Miles_Per_Year) = (Gen_Cost_Per_Mile)

Then:

(Gen_Cost_Per_Mile) + ((Fuel_price$) / MPG) = $/G


Right?

Working backwards....

Current average US diesel price = $4.69/G
We will take a MPG number of 10MPG, I think that's very fair.

So today we pay....... $0.469/mile we travel.

Assuming constant fuel prices, a cost of $500 for the HHO equipment, a lifespan of 5 years and a annual milage travelled of 10,000 miles.....

So the cost/mile for the generator is:

($500/5) / 10,000 = $.01/mile

To find the MPG gain we will need to break even we use the formula (I'll show my work):

($.01) + (($4.69) / MPG) = $0.469

($4.69) / MPG = $0.469 - $.01

($4.69) / MPG = $0.459

$4.69 = $0.459MPG

$4.69 / $0.459 = MPG

10.218 MPG

Sooooooo, we need a glorious .22 MPG increase to start making money on this process.

Now, I'm assuming a constant fuel price (ya, right), a low distance travelled and a reasonable lifespan I think (but this is just a guess). I've heard that about 25% of diesel fuel is exhausted unburnt from our engines. If we could get that back as MPG, we would see an increase of 2.5 MPG. If we account .5MPG of the increase towards the cost of the equipment (actual cost as per above is 0.218) and say our actual increase is to 12MPG our new cost/mile is $0.39! That's a savings of $.079/mile! Over 10,000 miles that is a savings of...... $790/year!


I think I got all that right but if anyone can correct any of my math, please do.

 

Converting mechanical energy to electricity has it's own inefficiencies.

And increasing electrical load DOES increase the alternator's mechanical load.

I wonder how much hydrogen does to increase the dynamic compression of a diesel? Maybe that's where the extra energy comes from, not directly from burning said hydrogen.

Oh well...

 

No arguement against that but there is some waste (over-generation) at normal operating levels.

Ultimately it will be very easy for us to see if there is any savings, as my calculations suggest. We need only modest gains to reach a break even on the game.

 

Yea what does just one high watt offroad light pull from the system yet no one thinks of that as a fuel guzzling add on,yet take 30-40 amps and make hho and get a complete burn of the fuel and you can gain maybe 20-30% fuel economy,i'll take it and i'm begining to beleive it must work because a lot of people are saying it does.
Its not a solution to the oil crisis but if i can save $75-$100.00 a month i'll be tickled pink..

 

You can make your own HHO generator out of simple household parts you can get from Lowes or HomeDepot for less than $50. I made the generator itself two days ago from a 4" x 8" piece of PVC with an end cap glued to the bottom and top, stainless home switchplate blanks, stainless hardware and some nylon hardware. It generates close to 1.5L a minute right now, I have to get the plates a little farther apart for it to produce more. It has been drawing 2 amps consistently @ 12v. i have to make the dryer (bubbler) and spark arrester before I mount it in my ZX2.

My kids get a kick out of it too.

Search on youtube for some insight on how to build it. It's called the 1994 HHO Escort. This guy has done alot of work experimenting with different materials and has come out with some interesting results.

If it just doesn't work, its a good science project for the kids!

 

Hey guys why don't you check out the HHO thread in:
Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L)

 

One problem dissolving the HHO in the fuel is the oxygen content. Oxygen and fuel = explosive. Best not mix them unless the oxygen can be separated from the hydrogen and fed into the system separately.

 

Same thing with Hydrogen and O2 by themselves

 

Correct but the ignition temperature is somewhere around 900° F. A mixture of fossil fuel and air(20% oxygen) is around 400° F. Just fumigate it into the engine, it'll be alot safer.

 

huntnfishndrink, I have a EFIE on my MAF sensor wires, however, does that also take care of the O2 sensors in front of the cat. converter? Do we sdtill have to install extenders for the O2 sensors?
Thanks,
Jimbro

 

There have been a few mules running around the Detroit area for about 4 yrs now. Thaose are all I have seen.