Hydrogen Generator
#16
03-03-2008, 09:26 AM
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We're talking about a relatively small amount of hydrogen and oxygen here, intended to increase the effeciency of the combustion process (ie a catalyst like propane injection only cheaper). The hydrogen and oxygen both work together to help burn more of the fuel that is already in the cylinder. As far as the amount of electricity needed: it seems to me if your calculated fuel milage increases it takes into acount the extra drag from the alternator break the water down into its component parts. It's not voodo, or nuclear science, if fuel economy increases it works if it doesn't then you naysayers are right. From everything I've read (on this site and others) it works. I'm no nuclear technician, but I would love to get after a used nuclear sub (if I could get it cheap maybee from Russia) and see what I could make with that. By the way you need a monkey wrench not a pipe wrench to work on a nuclear reactor
. So back to the topic: I need to fit an air tight gallon container into my Excursion and I can't for the life of me find a place, I was hoping someone more familiar with all of the nooks and crannies might be able to offer a few suggestions.
. So back to the topic: I need to fit an air tight gallon container into my Excursion and I can't for the life of me find a place, I was hoping someone more familiar with all of the nooks and crannies might be able to offer a few suggestions.
#17
03-03-2008, 09:37 AM
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red..........I too am very interested in this gadget! I've been reading up on this subject a lot this weekend and I'm net ready to try it yet mainly because of time. Have you found a container yet or are you just looking for a place first? You could mount a container with in the frame with a fill under the hood. But you would have to have some kind of sensor to let you know when it is empty. I'll try to look at my X today......I have an '03 w/ the 7.3l
#18
03-03-2008, 10:00 AM
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#20
03-03-2008, 10:50 AM
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6686, why are you continuing to troll this discussion? We all understand your position, so if you do not think hydrogen generation is viable technology, then by all means, go check out some other threads (there's plenty on here).
As to the issue of energy used to create hydrogen from water in sufficient quantities to burn exclusively as fuel, it is more than what is efficient, however, that is not what is being proposed here. Here is a Wiki quote with refences to oxyhydrogen as a fuel supplement.
As to the issue of energy used to create hydrogen from water in sufficient quantities to burn exclusively as fuel, it is more than what is efficient, however, that is not what is being proposed here. Here is a Wiki quote with refences to oxyhydrogen as a fuel supplement.
Fuel enhancement; hydrogen affects the burn rate of fuels and lean combustion capabilities of internal combustion engines.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-NG_2>[8]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=_ref-H_0>[9]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=_ref-0>[10]</SUP> Fuel Enhancement systems are designed "to feed the hydrogen and oxygen gases directly to an internal combustion engine without intermediate storage".<SUP class=reference id=_ref-Horvath_0>[11]</SUP> For Diesel applications; "When the hydrogen enriched air is compressed, the diesel fuel is introduced with a resulting improvement in fuel efficiency and maximized combustion of the fuel".<SUP class=reference id=_ref-1>[12]</SUP> Fuel enhancement has the potential to substantially reduce pollution emissions of internal combustion engines; research in 2004 concluded that "HC-emissions as well as NOx-emissions could be reduced to near zero".<SUP class=reference id=_ref-numerical_0>[13]</SUP> A 50% reduction in gasoline consumption, at idle, was reported by numerically analyzing "the effect of hydrogen enriched gasoline on the performance, emissions and fuel consumption of a small spark-ignition engine".<SUP class=reference id=_ref-HEG_0>[14]</SUP> When Brown's Gas burns it forms water, resulting in cooling the combustion chambers of engines, effectively allowing for greater compression ratios (see: Water injection). Hydrogen "addition can guarantee a regular running", of the engine "with many advantages in terms of emissions levels and fuel consumption reduction".<SUP class=reference id=_ref-numerical_1>[13]</SUP> Hydrogen fuel enhancement can be optimized by implementing established lean burn concepts, and at minimum to achieve an actual increase in gas mileage the air/fuel ratio needs appropriate modification.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-H_1>[9]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=_ref-NG_3>[8]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=_ref-numerical_2>[13]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=_ref-SI_0>[15]</SUP> "Overall, increases in engine efficiency are more dominant than the energy loss incurred in generating hydrogen, resulting in improved fuel economy for the system as a whole".<SUP class=reference id=_ref-H_2>[9]</SUP> This is supported by computational analysis that "has marked the possibility of operating with high air overabundance (lean or ultra-lean mixtures) without a performance decrease, but with great advantages on pollution emissions and fuel consumption".<SUP class=reference id=_ref-HEG_1>[14]</SUP>
[9]^ <SUP>a</SUP> <SUP>b</SUP> <SUP>c</SUP> John Houseman and D.J. Cerini at the Jet Propulsion Lab., California Institute of Technology "On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine". Abstracts of papers of the American Chemical Society (1974) West Coat Meeting, Anaheim, Calif. August 12-16 (meeting abstract paper# 740600)
[10]^ Hoehn FW, Baisley RL, Dowdy MW, "Advances In Ultralean Combustion Technology Using Hydrogren-Enriched Gasoline", IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic Systems 11 (5): 958-958 1975. (meeting abstract)
[11] ^ US4,107,008 (PDF version) (1978-8-15) Stephen Horvath Electrolysis method for producing hydrogen and oxygen
[12] ^ US4,573,435 (PDF version) (1986--) Glen Shelton Apparatus and method for generating hydrogen gas for use as a fuel additive in diesel engines
[13]^ <SUP>a</SUP> <SUP>b</SUP> <SUP>c</SUP> <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal">Yougen Kong, Sam Crane, Palak Patel and Bill Taylor (January, 2004). "NOx Trap Regeneration with an On-Board Hydrogen Generation Device". SAE Technical Paper Series (2004-01-0582): p. 6-7.</CITE>
[14]^ <SUP>a</SUP> <SUP>b</SUP> <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal">G. Fontana, E. Galloni, E. Jannelli and M. Minutillo (January, 2002). "Performance and Fuel Consumption Estimation of a Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline Engine at Part-Load Operation". SAE Technical Paper Series (2002-01-2196): p. 4-5.</CITE>
[9]^ <SUP>a</SUP> <SUP>b</SUP> <SUP>c</SUP> John Houseman and D.J. Cerini at the Jet Propulsion Lab., California Institute of Technology "On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine". Abstracts of papers of the American Chemical Society (1974) West Coat Meeting, Anaheim, Calif. August 12-16 (meeting abstract paper# 740600)
[10]^ Hoehn FW, Baisley RL, Dowdy MW, "Advances In Ultralean Combustion Technology Using Hydrogren-Enriched Gasoline", IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic Systems 11 (5): 958-958 1975. (meeting abstract)
[11] ^ US4,107,008 (PDF version) (1978-8-15) Stephen Horvath Electrolysis method for producing hydrogen and oxygen
[12] ^ US4,573,435 (PDF version) (1986--) Glen Shelton Apparatus and method for generating hydrogen gas for use as a fuel additive in diesel engines
[13]^ <SUP>a</SUP> <SUP>b</SUP> <SUP>c</SUP> <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal">Yougen Kong, Sam Crane, Palak Patel and Bill Taylor (January, 2004). "NOx Trap Regeneration with an On-Board Hydrogen Generation Device". SAE Technical Paper Series (2004-01-0582): p. 6-7.</CITE>
[14]^ <SUP>a</SUP> <SUP>b</SUP> <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal">G. Fontana, E. Galloni, E. Jannelli and M. Minutillo (January, 2002). "Performance and Fuel Consumption Estimation of a Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline Engine at Part-Load Operation". SAE Technical Paper Series (2002-01-2196): p. 4-5.</CITE>
#21
03-03-2008, 11:35 AM
[QUOTE=CanadianSmokie]6686, why are you continuing to troll this discussion? We all understand your position, so if you do not think hydrogen generation is viable technology, then by all means, go check out some other threads (there's plenty on here).
Hi Ken !
C'mon man..lighten up - is it that terrible to have a sense of humor about this stuff ?
Seriously, I am the wrong guy to discuss the theoretical viability of hydrogen as an energy source - given my limited technical training and intelligence, I am surprised they let me operate pay toilets !
Of COURSE I also am a "back-yard wrench turner"..and of COURSE I, along with most of the guys in here, could probably cobble up a device to separate oxygen and hydrogen - heck - we did that on a small scale in our physics classes ( Do I have to admit that was FIFTY YEARS ago....!). Of COURSE when put into mass production, it would be possible to make large amounts of hydrogen.
But - even a simple guy like me, without having the math skills to get precise numbers, can figure out there is no "free lunch" when it comes to energy.
Remember that old kraut with the wierd hair-do...? Remember his "theory of relatives'....? "Matter and energy are interchangeable - cannot be created or destroyed....". ! THAT's the problem. SURE hydrogen makes a great propellant. SURE it can be used to run both internal and external combustion engines. But how do you GET your hands on enough of it to be meaningful. ? THAT's the problem that I dont have an answer to.
I am glad I have an Excursion. Glad I discovered this forum ! Glad that there are guys in here who contribute, who have helped me out. So what if some guys occasionally go off on a tangent that may sound good, but is not technically viable for what we need done...! Learning to laugh AT one's self is good ! I've come up with some pretty whacky ideas myself down thru the years.
But as far as getting good mileage out of my own Excursion...best idea i have heard...is putting something sharp on the gas pedal...!
Hi Ken !
C'mon man..lighten up - is it that terrible to have a sense of humor about this stuff ?
Seriously, I am the wrong guy to discuss the theoretical viability of hydrogen as an energy source - given my limited technical training and intelligence, I am surprised they let me operate pay toilets !
Of COURSE I also am a "back-yard wrench turner"..and of COURSE I, along with most of the guys in here, could probably cobble up a device to separate oxygen and hydrogen - heck - we did that on a small scale in our physics classes ( Do I have to admit that was FIFTY YEARS ago....!). Of COURSE when put into mass production, it would be possible to make large amounts of hydrogen.
But - even a simple guy like me, without having the math skills to get precise numbers, can figure out there is no "free lunch" when it comes to energy.
Remember that old kraut with the wierd hair-do...? Remember his "theory of relatives'....? "Matter and energy are interchangeable - cannot be created or destroyed....". ! THAT's the problem. SURE hydrogen makes a great propellant. SURE it can be used to run both internal and external combustion engines. But how do you GET your hands on enough of it to be meaningful. ? THAT's the problem that I dont have an answer to.
I am glad I have an Excursion. Glad I discovered this forum ! Glad that there are guys in here who contribute, who have helped me out. So what if some guys occasionally go off on a tangent that may sound good, but is not technically viable for what we need done...! Learning to laugh AT one's self is good ! I've come up with some pretty whacky ideas myself down thru the years.
But as far as getting good mileage out of my own Excursion...best idea i have heard...is putting something sharp on the gas pedal...!
#22
03-03-2008, 01:58 PM
I was thinking too that electrolysis would require to much power from your alternator to make it worth it, but then I remembered that its just amps that push electroylsis, not so much voltage. Your electrolysis machine might need 80 amps of power, but thats at 14 volts, slightly over 1kw, or just about 2HP needed to drive that load. I could see how that could be made back with the hydrogen released.
#23
03-03-2008, 02:32 PM
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"But - even a simple guy like me, without having the math skills to get precise numbers, can figure out there is no "free lunch" when it comes to energy."
It's not a free lunch dude........It's eating more of the food you got on the plate. EFFIECENCY!!!!!!!! Read what we're saying not what you're thinking. It's OK you can laugh at yourself now
!!!!!
It's not a free lunch dude........It's eating more of the food you got on the plate. EFFIECENCY!!!!!!!! Read what we're saying not what you're thinking. It's OK you can laugh at yourself now
!!!!!
#24
03-03-2008, 06:06 PM
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The unit I'm looking at says it draws 30 amps. It also uses a mixture of distilled water and lye. The distilled water is obviously filled every 600 miles or so but the lye (about a teaspoon I think) only gets added every couple of months. Any idea how alkaline water would be more favourable to the electrolysis process?
#25
03-03-2008, 06:15 PM
#26
03-03-2008, 08:09 PM
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#27
03-04-2008, 01:07 AM
[QUOTE=twtcad]Smokie..........30amps seems like a very large draw on the altenator........... QUOTE]
30 amps...? Modern cars have alternators capable of handling WAY more than that.
Trouble is, 30 amps at 12 volts isnt going to break down much water into its components of oxygen and hydrogen.
Damn..I apolgize...sorry...( shouldn't have bothered you nice people with those nasty laws of physics..... ) Which is why I brought up the idea of a horny squirrel.......
30 amps...? Modern cars have alternators capable of handling WAY more than that.
Trouble is, 30 amps at 12 volts isnt going to break down much water into its components of oxygen and hydrogen.
Damn..I apolgize...sorry...( shouldn't have bothered you nice people with those nasty laws of physics..... ) Which is why I brought up the idea of a horny squirrel.......
#28
03-04-2008, 06:31 AM
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6686L.........What I was trying to say is; I would think an addition 30amps being drawn off the alternator would be a lot of additional demand with out going to a larger alternator. Like I said from the units that are sold that I have seen it's less than 15amps. You also do not want to generate to much heat and cause to water to boil.
I never claimed I was an expert, just passing on what I have read since I too am interested in this device if it works!
And you are right, maybe you are to smart for us (me) dumb people! Thank You again for your smart a$$ responses and your higher intelligence!
I never claimed I was an expert, just passing on what I have read since I too am interested in this device if it works!
And you are right, maybe you are to smart for us (me) dumb people! Thank You again for your smart a$$ responses and your higher intelligence!
#29
03-04-2008, 09:01 AM
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The additives (lye, baking soda) increase the conductivity of the water. The more additives the higher the amp draw the more gas you get.
Originally Posted by CanadianSmokie
The unit I'm looking at says it draws 30 amps. It also uses a mixture of distilled water and lye. The distilled water is obviously filled every 600 miles or so but the lye (about a teaspoon I think) only gets added every couple of months. Any idea how alkaline water would be more favourable to the electrolysis process?
#30
03-04-2008, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by twtcad
6686L.........What I was trying to say is; I would think an addition 30amps being drawn off the alternator would be a lot....... You also do not want to generate to much heat and cause to water to boil.
I never claimed I was an expert, just passing on what I have read since I too am interested in this device if it works!
And you are right, maybe you are to smart for us (me) dumb people! Thank You again for your smart a$$ responses and your higher intelligence!
I never claimed I was an expert, just passing on what I have read since I too am interested in this device if it works!
And you are right, maybe you are to smart for us (me) dumb people! Thank You again for your smart a$$ responses and your higher intelligence!
You are right - I am incredibly intelligent...also, sweet-dispositioned, good natured, and meek and mild mannered.
However, all that dosnt change some simple laws of physics we are all stuck with. We've got a big, heavy one-ton truck with a lot of frontal area. The faster and harder we push it, the more energy we are going to consume doing that. Drive it slow and gentle, and you'll get better gas mileage than driving hard and fast. You are right - the more "load" you put on a device to change mechanical energy (coming from the crank pulley) into electrical energy (what comes out of your alternator ) the more heat you are going to generate.
I dont work on modern cars ( "modern" to me...means post World War II...!) so I am not familiar with the alternators on our Excursions. My best guess is that they, like the rest of our Excursion's running-gear, are heavy duty truck parts, probably well over 100 amp. capacity. That being the case, they should handle an 80% "duty load" without over-heating. Problem is, to do that you are going to need energy (damm..now we are back to real world physicis.....) Now...guess where the energy to run that alternator, to make hydrogen gas comes from. Oh Oh...now we've got another problem. As you note, the more electrical energy you get out of an alternator, the more heat. Guess what...that heat, is ENERGY...WASTED as heat....So, we start out with some gasoline, we burn it and we get both mechanical and heat energy. NOW you can see why MY idea of a horney squrrel coupled to a bicycle's headlight generator makes as much sense...(oh..damn..I forgot...you have to feed the squirrel...oh well..there goes that theory..too....! )
So, there you are - more of that stuff that is so annoying and "smart a$$") (real world limitations of the laws we cannot break..laws of physics....)