Hey everybody, I just wanted to know about a roller cam in a 400. So far, the only halfway decent/streetable one I have found is by Crower. Here is it's specs:

Adv. Duration - 275 Intake 284 Exhaust
Dur @ .050 - 234 Intake 244 Exhaust
Lift @ 1.73 - .570 Intake .572 Exhaust

I am pretty satisfied with the numbers, except for the Duration @ .050. They seem awfully high to me for low end power. Here's what really troubles me. Now I know that if we are talking about a hydraulic NON-roller, those duration figures are not really good for low end torque (low end is most important to me). At the same time, I understand the nature of a roller camshaft, and how it is lots of lift really fast to improve the low end and off-idle. So really what I want to know is, will I still keep my low-end with this roller cam? I have heard from many people that roller camshafts, although expensive, are well worth every penny. But I don't want to spend all that money if I'm not going to have my low end. FYI, I have an auto tranny (bulletproof AOD rated to 800hp) and am rebuilding a 400 out of a 78 Ford. Let me know what you guys think. Also, does anyone know how much it would be to get a custom mad camshaft from Crane/Comp/Crower?

 

>Hey everybody, I just wanted to know about a roller cam in a
>400. So far, the only halfway decent/streetable one I have
>found is by Crower. Here is it's specs:
>
>Adv. Duration - 275 Intake 284 Exhaust
>Dur @ .050 - 234 Intake 244 Exhaust
>Lift @ 1.73 - .570 Intake .572 Exhaust
>
Well the Crower cams I use are a few higher then the one you picked here , but from my experience with these cams they've alway been good in my motors. Tons of torque out of the hole.


>I am pretty satisfied with the numbers, except for the
>Duration @ .050. They seem awfully high to me for low end
>power. Here's what really troubles me. Now I know that if we
>are talking about a hydraulic NON-roller, those duration
>figures are not really good for low end torque (low end is
>most important to me). At the same time, I understand the
>nature of a roller camshaft, and how it is lots of lift
>really fast to improve the low end and off-idle. So really
>what I want to know is, will I still keep my low-end with
>this roller cam? I have heard from many people that roller
>camshafts, although expensive, are well worth every penny.
>But I don't want to spend all that money if I'm not going to
>have my low end. FYI, I have an auto tranny (bulletproof AOD
>rated to 800hp) and am rebuilding a 400 out of a 78 Ford.
>Let me know what you guys think. Also, does anyone know how
>much it would be to get a custom mad camshaft from
>Crane/Comp/Crower?


Usally for a custom grind it's a few bucks more, but if you know the exact numbers you WANT and know those numbers WILL work for you then spend the extra cash and have them grind it .. BUT remember they won't take it back if it don't work .

 

Comp Cams quoted me $258.45 for a custom grind, same price as a standard grind. The difference is it takes 6 weeks to get the custom cam, the stock parts are on the shelf. These are reduced base circle retrofit cams for use with std Ford Motorsport hyd roller lifters.

Check their part numbers: 32-421-8, or 32-411-8

 

Try the Crane web site. I'm running the smaller of five available it has around the same lift with less duration and is working great for me. No problem smokin the balonies off the line.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-Aug-02 AT 03:08 PM (EST)]i did some measuring on my 302 factory roller setup, and also put the parts on a 351c block to see how it fit.

short story is: it looks like about all it would take to use stock 302 parts is to drill & tap the holes in the lifter valley (assuming you're doing a full rebuild) and use a cam with reduced base circle. the cam i used in the 351c was a '99 explorer 5.0L cam - the last bearing was a little tight, so it didn't go in all the way and each lifter was riding on 2 lobes. also i couldn't turn it. but the lifters that were near peak lift were out high enough to raise up the little brackets. just offhand, it looked like they were about .100 higher than in the 5.0L with the lobe down, which would need a base circle reduced by .200 - maybe a little more hith a high lift cam.

in the 5.0L HO, i think the lift is .444 at the valve (1.6:1 rockers). i measured about .08 clearance between the bottom of the flats on the lifter and the shoulder on the dogbone at highest lift, meaning that you could have about .08 MORE lift (at the lobe) than the factory cam, which would be about .570 lift at the valve. that means that even with a factory roller block & setup, anything over about .570 lift would require a reduced circle cam. also, it looked like about the most you could reduce it would be .15 (diameter) or so before the lifter would be too far down. so with optimal base circle size, the most lift you could have would be about .7 with 1.6 rockers, or about .75 with 1.7 rockers... i think the actual flat on the lifters was .625 (5/8) so with .100 engaged when valve is closed, that's .525 of travel at the lobe, or .89 at the valve with 1.7 rockers.

so the good news is that there is enough flat on the lifters to allow the plenty of lift for 4v heads. also, it looked like the tops of the lifter bores in my '70 351c block were smooth & flat enough to not NEED machining, but i guess if you're getting a custom cam grind and the machining was cheap, it wouldn't be a bad idea. also, the shorter lifter bores seem about right for mounting the "spider" down flat in the valley, without raised bosses or washers.

it looks like the real key to the whole thing is getting the right base circle on the cam so that the top of the lifters are even with the top of the dogbones when the valve is closed.

i'll post the measurements tonight.

also - since the factory setup isn't springy - it just holds the forks on the lifter flats - it seems to me that you could use ANYTHING with 2 snugly-fitting straight edges to keep the lifters straight. so if you're good at making custom parts, you could use a normal base-circle cam. the trouble is that once the flats come out of the bore, the machined surface that keeps the oil in the gallery is the next thing to start coming out - so it couldn't have a lot of lift.

 

Thanks GREAT REPORT! Lots of good info that answers many of my questions.

Bear- The camshafts I have found at Crane Cams all seem to be normal base circle cams. With a normal base circle cam you have to use their lifter $etup for retrofit in non-HR blocks.

Comp Cams has reduced base circle cams for use with the std Ford Motorsport hyd roller lifters.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 13-Aug-02 AT 01:15 AM (EST)]>...their lifter $etup...
>

exactly what i wa$ thinking! i could understand it if they were titanium!

okay, the following are measurements of a stock '93 mustang GT setup. the block is an "F1SE" casting. the letters "XXX" are cast on both sides of the valley in large lettering. the cam is listed as having 266 duration, .444" lift at the valve with stock 1.6 rockers.

if some of the numbers don't add up, it's because of round-off, and the fact that no two of anything measured the same (especially things measured to .xx precision - the .xxx's were more consistant), and i ended up just sayingI can't speak civillyand picking a number...

raised boss in lifter valley floor (for mounting spider) - .11 to .16 high
space between bosses and spider, with spider ready to bolt down - .46
*vertical distance from boss to topmost edge of lifter bore - .92
camshaft base circle (measured) - 1.440
minimum amount lifter extends past top of dogbone when valve closed - .04
minimum amount lifter extends past top of bore when valve closed - .32
dogbone total thickness - .240
thickness of dogbone "lip" (the part that fits against the lifter flats) - .138
height of lifter "flats" - .535 - NOT .625 as stated above!
width of lifter flats - forgot to measure!
additional lobe lift possible before lifter contacts dogbone - .08 - NOTE - this was the highest lifter, but due to galled cam bearings, i could not rotate cam to find point of highest lift.
overall length of lifter, from roller tip to top of flats - 2.513
length of lifter bore - 1.625
thichness of casting around lifter bore, at uppermost edge, where * was measured - .24 to .25 one side of valley, .21-.22 other side

when i installed the setup in the 351c block, the lifters looked about .1" higher out of the bores than in the 302 block. one of them was definately in contact with the dogbone, and was actually raising it up off the top of the lifter bore.

what i plan to do is:
1. install the lifters & dogbones in the 400, using the stock 400 cam.
2. for each lifter, rotate the cam to a "no lift" position, and measure how high the lifter sticks up past the top of the dogbone.
3. measure the base circle of each lobe.
4. for each lobe, subtract 2x the "sticking up" distance from the base circle diameter to get the desired base circle. (why 2x? think "radius vs. diameter")
5. compare the different "desired base circles" and pick a nice round multiple of .005 somewhere in the middle of the bunch - or see if any off-the-shelf cams fall in the range.

if there are big differences in "desires circle" between any two lifters on the same dogbone, it might be good to get the tops of the bores "decked" so the dogbones will lay flat.

if the top of the .535 high lifter flat is even with the top of the .138 thick dogbone lip at the "valve closed" position, then there should be .397 available lift at the lobe before the lifter makes contact with the dogbone and starts to raise it. with 1.72:1 ratio rockers, that's .683 valve opening.

oops! i forgot lifter pre-load... take away .02 at the lifter, and you get .377 at the lobe, or .648 at the valve. that's still probably enough... but if it's not, it might be ok to use a .1 smaller base circle, to put the top of the lifter .05 BELOW the top of the dogbone when valve closed. that would still leave .088 of the lifter flat being held straight by the dogbone. adding that .05 back to the .377, you get .427 lobe, .734 valve - that's probably enough for anybody who would use stock roller lifters! the big question is if the top edge of the lifter would chew up the dogbone. i don't think it would, but it might not be a bad idea to chamfer back the top .05 of the dogbone.

this really shouldn't be too bad - just a bit of measuring, a custom cam most likely, and an odd pushrod length.

who here knows about odd pushrods?

 

Great info!

I bought my whole Ford Motorsport roller lifter setup used with less than 2500 miles for $50. I love roller lifters, they dont have to be replaced with the cam

You can get custom length pushrods from Crane or Comp Cams. You can buy a pushrod length checker. Or you can make one of your own by cutting a section out of a used pushrod and replacing it with a length of all thread that will slip inside and a nut and some solder. When you determine the length you need, check with a listing of "stock" or "off the shelf" lengths available and see if one of the proper configuration is close enough to work. You may end up with a Cheby pushrod in your Ford :-) Remember to check your valve contact patch and allow for lifter preload.

Thanks!