I received a report from Blackstsone Labs that indicated the lead content was a little high and recommended I change oil sooner since I pull heavy loads constantly (7,000 to 11,000 pounds). I don't have a problem with that and will change sooner.

I took truck to Ford dealer this morning to fix an oil leak and I asked about the Ford extended warranty (200,000 miles, 7 years, costs $2020.00). I mentioned that the lead content was high and was concerned about the bearings. They called their "diesel expert" into the service office and he told me not to worry because there was no lead anywhere in the engine.

So, techies, what are the bearings made of?

Oh yeah, 2006 6.0L, 75,000 mils

 

Yes, there are lead in the bearings. The outer layer is a lead/copper alloy with a steel backing plate.

What exactly was the lead reading? Towing heavy will increase rod/main wear just due to the higher prolonged RPM, but not drastically. How many points high was it?

 

Oil is Schaeffer 9000 5W40 Synthetic. I was trying to see what is the best oil change interval after switching from Mototcraft 15W40. I pull a heavy load almost all the time on the interstate at below legal speeds, anywhere from 7500 lbs to 20,000 lbs.

First change, 7481 miles on oil, 7 ppm
Second change, 9956 miles on oil, 12 ppm
Third change, 12,180 miles on oil, 30 ppm

(The last one was way too long, I know.) I plan to starting changing at around 7500 miles.

 

There is a lot of good help at bitog also:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Many folks there familiar w/ the oils and their additives.
How many miles on your truck?
At what mileage did you switch oils?

 

One other question - what was your fuel dilution?

Below are some comments from a search on BITOG:


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=863186&fpart=1<O</O

unsulfated moly compounds do cause copper/lead issues, so going to a lower moly oil may do the trick, but it doesnt really look like its needed.

there is also a chance it could be caused by the fuel additive.<O</O</SPAN>

All the other additive numbers are close to Mobil Delvac 5</FONT>w<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[img] /><st1:NumConv6p0 sch=[/img]<font color=" /><st1:NumConv6p0 sch="1" val="40"><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS">40</FONT></FONT></st1:NumConv6p0><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS"> numbers. So running Delvac instead of Schaeffers would be a good way to determine if the moly is causing elevated lead readings.</FONT></FONT><O</O</SPAN>

<FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS">from the schaeffers </FONT></FONT><st1:NumConv6p0 sch="1" val="9000"><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS">9000</FONT></FONT></st1:NumConv6p0><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS"> reports on diesel engines i have seen, the moly does not cause accelerated corrosion of lead or copper, so i am more inclined to suspect the fuel additive, especially if it contains poly ether amines.</FONT></FONT><O</O</SPAN>

<FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS"><O</O</FONT></FONT>
<FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS">Bouncing among oils will also cause UOA PPM fears. Stick with one oil always and run it </FONT></FONT><st1:NumConv6p0 sch="1" val="2"><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS">2</FONT></FONT></st1:NumConv6p0><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS">-</FONT></FONT><st1:NumConv6p0 sch="1" val="3"><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS">3</FONT></FONT></st1:NumConv6p0><FONT color=#333333><FONT face="Trebuchet MS"> times consecutively before drawing a UOA conclusion on the oil.</FONT></FONT></SPAN>

ALSO:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=25&Number=103901 8&Searchpage=1&Main=78822&Words=lead&topic=0&Searc h=true#Post1039018

For those who try Rotella, then Delo, then Amsoil, then Delvac, then Schaeffer's ... you might not be able to draw any direct comparisons regarding oil brand performance capabilities. Specifically look at the link I'm posting; read near the bottom, Appendix A, sub-section 1, paragraph 7. It states that abnormally high lead or copper readings from an otherwise solid performing engine may very likely be due to the changes of chemistry between oil brands reacting with the engine metals, and not due to some detrimental damage.

Here's the link. <FONT color=#0000ff>http://www.cummins.dk/fileadmin/dokumenter/Pdf_filer/Cummins_Litteratur/Olie_3810340-04.htm</FONT>

.................................................. .............................................

I also use Schaeffer, so I am very interested in your issue!

 

What viscosity numbers are you seeing with the long OCI?

 

The cummins link I posted above has some very interesting information on oil analysis. It is good reading for anyone having oil analysis done or interested in beginning to do them. The main info is towards the end of this fairly lengthy cummins bulletin.

Two specific paragraphs to elevated lead issues:

The percent fuel in the used engine oil determines excessive fuel contamination (dilution). This can also be reflected in a viscosity decrease of more than a SAE grade and significantly lowered flash point compared to new oil properties. The poor thermal stability of fuel results in oxidation of the fuel at oil pan temperatures. Subsequent accumulation of elevated levels of lead in the used oil can occur from the interaction of the deteriorated fuel with bearing and bushing material.


Abnormal wear, which can indicate that there's a problem, usually only involves elevated levels of one or two metals. Detection of elevated levels of a wear metal is best performed by comparing the levels in the used oil sample to the levels in previous oil samples from the same engine. Engine components containing copper and lead can become chemically active with a change in the additive chemicals in the oil that is often accompanied by switching to a different brand of oil. This often results in dramatically increased levels, often ten times, of copper or lead in used oil. Increased levels from this source is not reason for excessive concern. These components will become passive after a few oil changes with different oil. Wear metal levels will then slowly decline back into the normal range for the engine.

 

OK, I'll try to answer all teh questions in one reply:

Miles on truck ( as of most recent analysis) = 71300
First changed from motorcraft 15w40 to Schaeffer 5w40 at 59,000 miles

Fuel % = <0.5 on all three samples

I forgot the name of the diesel fuel supplement because I'm old, it's late, and I'm tired - but it is the brand sold at walmart, gray for summer and white for winter. I mix it twice as strong as recommended.

SUS Viscosity @ 210F = First analysis, 66.5; second analysis, 66.9; third analysis, 68.7.

cST Viscosity @ 100C = First analysis, 12.01; second analysis, 12.12; third analysis, 12.6.

I don't have a clue what I just typed, but the values are within the range that Blackstone says they should be.

BTW, I called Blackstone today and they were very considerate and helpful on the phone. I asked their opinion of bypass oil filters. They stated that they are a good thing for filtering out dirt and contaminants but they do not remove abrasive wear metals not do they help to maintain TBN. Bottom line = they are a good thing but don't assume they will automatically give you extended OCI. Depend on the analysis. Each engine will have a different OCI based on the use and performance of that particular engine. Just because your buddy gets good results with a bypass, don't assume you will get identical results from a different engine driven by a different driver.

 

The Viscosity values represent a 30 weight oil, but can be misleading.

If i am reading your 2nd post correctly you did the following:

UOA & OC with 7481 miles on Motorcraft 15W-40 oil results of 7ppm lead SUS@210=66.5.

UOA & OC with 9956 miles on Motorcraft 15W-40 oil, results of 12ppm lead SUS@210=66.9

UOA & OC with 12,100 miles on Schaffer 5W-40 oil, results of 30ppm lead SUS@210=68.7

Okay the higher viscosity of the two longer OCI is do to increased Oxidation & Contaminents and Heat load on the oil (note antifreeze in the oil will also increase viscosity). The insolubles should be higher on the oils with longer OCI as well. Without paying the extra fee and requesting Blackstone to run the TBN test, you cannot safely predict extened OCI.

The increase lead amount would concern me and needs to be looked at closely. Sample your current oil between 4-5k miles and run a TBN test as well. If the TBN is acceptable and the lead is no higher than 7ppm, continue to run the oil, and then change the oil at 7500 miles and run a UOA & TBN test. If the lead levels at 7500 miles do not exceed 7-8ppm then i would not worry about bearing damage.

Since you tow heavy constantly i would run OCI of no more than 7500 miles and preferrably 5k miles. In addition, unless you are regulary in extreme cold conditions (less than 10F), i would run 15W-40 instead of 5W-40. The 6.0 is notorious for shearing oils down rapidly, and the 5W-40 has a lower film strength than the 15W-40 oil as it is used in a warm engine. Higher film strength results in better lubrication protection and less bearing wear. The lower film strength of the 5W-40 oil is a contributing factor to the high lead levels (30ppm). The 5W-40 only has 2144 more miles on it than the 15W-40 that was run 9956 miles but the lead levels of the 5W-40 are almost 3-times higher.

 

This could be what is happening, but multiple sources (including Cummins bulletins as posted previously) indicate it could very possibly be elevated due to interactions of additives from changing oils. Regardless, a 5000 mile interval and the next UAO should determine whether or not the lead issue is real.

What oil do you have in the truck currently? Is it still Schaeffer?

If it is Schaeffer, you should not have to worry about shear with 5000 mile OCI - which is an excellent thing to consider no matter what oil you choose to use (with heavy towing).

Also - several sources indicate if it is bearing wear, there is frequently elevated copper also. Not always the case, but frequently.

 

Blackhat and Bismic,

Thanks for the responses. Blackhat, all three samples were Schaeffer 5w40. The first and last had TBN, middle one didn't. First TBN was 6.7, last was 1.9. Yeah, I know that I did a bad thing going so many miles on an oil change, but I promise it won't happen again.

Bismic, I plan on continued use of Schaeffer. What the heck, it's only $4 a quart when you buy in bulk and I bought in bulk. However, I will probably keep the 5w40 for a while. I was driving in 7 degree weather in West Virginia and later got caught in the news-making ice storms in Oklahoma.

To confound matters even worse, the oil in it right now (which is coming out today) is motorcraft 15w40. I got a free oil change and you can't pass up free. The next oil change will also be motorcraft since it is in the shop right now with the top of the motor off trying to fix an oil leak down the back of the motor. (Don't you just love the warranties when they work?) When they reassemble it, they will change oil. Both these changes will get sent off to Blackstone.

After that, I plan on using Schaeffers, OCI at 5 or 6 thousand with analysis that includes TBN. I figure after a few consistent readings, it will level out at about 6,000 mile intervals.

 

Bismic i am aware that sometimes switching oils elevates some sample levels, but in this case i do not believe that is the problem. First off if you look at the multiple UOA posted at BITOG on the 6.0 alone, it is extremely rare to see the element levels increase when the oil brand is changed. In addition since the Lead content jumped so high at 12,100 miles and the Viscosity increased this indicates to me the oil was not lubricating properly and engine wear was occurring.

 

Holy crap a TBN of 1.9, along with increased SUS number, no wonder you are seeing such high Lead levels, and increased engine wear.

I would sample the oil at 4k and get a TBN reading as well. If the numbers look good (Lead 7ppm or less) then continue to run the oil and change it at 5-6k along with another UOA. Since you have such high Lead readings you need to sample frequently for the next couple of OCI to determine if you did serious damage to the bearings in the engine.

What where the "Insoluble" levels on the three samples?

 

Jim - clear something up for me please (maybe I am missing something).

You stated that you had 71,300 miles on truck as of the last oil sample/change.

You stated you had 12,180 miles on the oil - Schaeffer 9000.

You stated that you first started using Schaeffer at 59,000 miles

You stated that all three viscosity numbers were on the Schaeffer.

Does this mean that you took samples at three different times on the one and only run you have had on Schaeffer? If so, then are the three viscosities at the varying miles on the single run on Schaeffer? If so, then the oil appears to be getting thicker?

I guess I was reading the viscosities to either be two on Motorcraft and one on Schaeffer or all three repeated on Schaeffer at 12,100 miles.

I was not concerned at thicker viscosities with Schaeffer since it shears less. My readings have been higher than yours. Clearly though if the oil is thickening, the wear numbers represent a more real concern as Blackhat points out.

If you don't mind, post again to clear up for me.

THANKS!

 

Bismic,

Your last post made me go back to my maintenance records and showed me that I made a numbers mistake. The number of miles on the OCIs are correct, but the mileage on the truck is wrong.

I first changed from Motorcraft 15w40 at 49,206. I took a sample but did not change oil after 7,481 miles and that produced the report that first stated the lead was a little high but could be just the result of a bearing streak. The TBN was high (6.7) so they said send in another sample after about 2,000 miles.

The second analysis was sent at 59,172 miles on vehicle, same oil, but now with 9,966 miles on it. Blackstone said lead was still a little high, but you would expect that since it was the same oil. No TBN test was done and I changed the oil expecting to go about 10,000 miles on OCI.

I totally screwed up and ran 12,180 miles because I got caught up in the ice storms in Oklahoma and was too busy running emergency generators to Oklahoma from central Texas. Still, I should have changed oil and that will never happen again.

Anyway, I did change oil and sent in for analysis and changed to motorcraft 15w40 – not because I think it is better, but because I got a free oil change. It was this third analysis that Blackstone said I am hurting my engine by going 12,000 miles and should keep Schaeffers and send in another sample at 6,000 miles. I will do that as soon as I get a few miles out of my free motorcraft oil.

I learned my lesson. I now carry four gallons of oil and a filter in my toolbox. When the time comes, no matter where I am and even if I have to go to an oil change place and pay them to change with my oil and filter, I will change the oil religiously from now on.