V10 Test Drive
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V10 Test Drive
on all the excellent advice from everyone here i drove 4 hours and test drove a new v10 cc sd lariat with 4.1 rear 4x4. i took it for a long test drive - city streets and 70mph freeway. even found a long country road dead end.
likes
1) much quieter than the dz. not as smooth as my double overhead cam toyota but the best i have experienced from a domestic - smooth enough for me. with the pedel to the floor plenty of go from 0 to 60.
dislikes
1) light accelerator and light acceleration. moderate accelerator and not much difference. full accelerator and after a pause lots of go once the rpms get up in the 4-5000 range. it seemed like it took some time for the engine to rev up to high rpms. maybe i am used to my smaller double overhead cam engine which loves to rev quickly? going 60 to 80 took the accelerator almost to the floor to get the engine/trany to wake up and go. it almost seemed as though it was trying to take it easy until it new i really wanted to go. it also seemed to pause a bit after shifting. the shifts were smooth but seemed delayed under hard acceleration. i test drove a new 6.4 right after on the same roads. going from 50 to 75 (typical passing) just seemed easier and the response was faster - did not require me to floor it before going. opposite of what i expected with the turbo.
not sure what to make of my test drive. smooth and quiet but it seemed as though things were not as others have spoken of on this site. kind of felt like my tundra with 4000lbs behind it - not until really flooring it did things wake up and the tranny seemed to be slow shifting - almost like it was trying to protect the engine/drivetrain. could this be the early programming other speak of ? i really want the v10 to work because of proven reliability.
thx
ts
likes
1) much quieter than the dz. not as smooth as my double overhead cam toyota but the best i have experienced from a domestic - smooth enough for me. with the pedel to the floor plenty of go from 0 to 60.
dislikes
1) light accelerator and light acceleration. moderate accelerator and not much difference. full accelerator and after a pause lots of go once the rpms get up in the 4-5000 range. it seemed like it took some time for the engine to rev up to high rpms. maybe i am used to my smaller double overhead cam engine which loves to rev quickly? going 60 to 80 took the accelerator almost to the floor to get the engine/trany to wake up and go. it almost seemed as though it was trying to take it easy until it new i really wanted to go. it also seemed to pause a bit after shifting. the shifts were smooth but seemed delayed under hard acceleration. i test drove a new 6.4 right after on the same roads. going from 50 to 75 (typical passing) just seemed easier and the response was faster - did not require me to floor it before going. opposite of what i expected with the turbo.
not sure what to make of my test drive. smooth and quiet but it seemed as though things were not as others have spoken of on this site. kind of felt like my tundra with 4000lbs behind it - not until really flooring it did things wake up and the tranny seemed to be slow shifting - almost like it was trying to protect the engine/drivetrain. could this be the early programming other speak of ? i really want the v10 to work because of proven reliability.
thx
ts
Last edited by theoshin; Oct 23, 2007 at 10:01 PM.
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From: Burnsville, MN
There are two, possibly three facets to this. First, the computer is "adaptive", in that ir runs a default program while it learns your driving style, and the learning process takes something like a half dozen driving cycles. Second, if you want to tell the computer to be agressive, you have to be sure to turn on the "tow/haul" mode, and third, although I personally think people make too big a deal of this, there is evidently a built-in break in period of about 150 hours in the new motors before they perform to the level people talk about.
Additionally, its not clear whether you are comparing the truck to another truck, or maybe a car. The configuration truck you were driving probably weighed at least 7,500 pounds, which is the weight of two full sized cars. We consider the V10 to be responsive for trucks, not sports cars.
That said, there are also rev limiter somewhere around 5300 rpm, and a top speed limit maybe in the 80's. You have to consider with my manual, I cruise at 70 mph at about 2200 rpm. So then if you double the rpm to 4400 you'd be going 140 mph with 800 rpm to spare to fight the air resistance. Since these are working/ towing trucks with a gross combined rating around 25,000 pounds, and since the factory tires have a top recommended speed of about 85, travel at these speeds is not recommended!
One last point that might be involved is that people who do want a light, responsive performance do complain about the gas pedal being wired to the computer, and not as in the old days where a steel wire went directly to the carburator.
In any event, whether you decide you like it or not, your "process" is right on, so long as you are comparing like trucks to like trucks. Good luck with your decision.
Additionally, its not clear whether you are comparing the truck to another truck, or maybe a car. The configuration truck you were driving probably weighed at least 7,500 pounds, which is the weight of two full sized cars. We consider the V10 to be responsive for trucks, not sports cars.
That said, there are also rev limiter somewhere around 5300 rpm, and a top speed limit maybe in the 80's. You have to consider with my manual, I cruise at 70 mph at about 2200 rpm. So then if you double the rpm to 4400 you'd be going 140 mph with 800 rpm to spare to fight the air resistance. Since these are working/ towing trucks with a gross combined rating around 25,000 pounds, and since the factory tires have a top recommended speed of about 85, travel at these speeds is not recommended!
One last point that might be involved is that people who do want a light, responsive performance do complain about the gas pedal being wired to the computer, and not as in the old days where a steel wire went directly to the carburator.
In any event, whether you decide you like it or not, your "process" is right on, so long as you are comparing like trucks to like trucks. Good luck with your decision.
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From: Kemmerer, Wyoming
yup, break-in programming. Someone will chime in and tell you how long it lasts. Motor really wakes up after the initial break-in though. Try to find a used one to test drive if you really want to know how it will perform.
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I just took delivery of a new 08 on Friday and I agree almost completely with your test drive thoughts Theoshin. Before I ordered I drove 3 v10s. 2 new and one 06 with 45k on the clock. All had 4.10 rears. One of the new ones ran much stronger when in tow haul. It would really set you back when you got on it. The other new one was a dog no matter what. My wifes 5.3 Sub would eat it. The 06 was in the middle as is my new one with 4.30 gears.
The one thing that I have noticed is that these rigs have what we used to call "soft power" in a snomobile. That means that they are pulling harder than they feel like they are. Since they are not setting you back in the seat they just don't feel like they are gaining speed as fast as the speedo would indicate.
I'll wait till it has some mile to make a finall judgement. I know it needs to loosen up. Maybe it doesn't like our regular gas. I've yet to have a gasser that didn't run better and make better milage when I used the mid grade.
The one thing that I have noticed is that these rigs have what we used to call "soft power" in a snomobile. That means that they are pulling harder than they feel like they are. Since they are not setting you back in the seat they just don't feel like they are gaining speed as fast as the speedo would indicate.
I'll wait till it has some mile to make a finall judgement. I know it needs to loosen up. Maybe it doesn't like our regular gas. I've yet to have a gasser that didn't run better and make better milage when I used the mid grade.
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Originally Posted by Mmaxed
I just took delivery of a new 08 on Friday and I agree almost completely with your test drive thoughts Theoshin. Before I ordered I drove 3 v10s. 2 new and one 06 with 45k on the clock. All had 4.10 rears. One of the new ones ran much stronger when in tow haul. It would really set you back when you got on it. The other new one was a dog no matter what. My wifes 5.3 Sub would eat it. The 06 was in the middle as is my new one with 4.30 gears.
The one thing that I have noticed is that these rigs have what we used to call "soft power" in a snomobile. That means that they are pulling harder than they feel like they are. Since they are not setting you back in the seat they just don't feel like they are gaining speed as fast as the speedo would indicate.
I'll wait till it has some mile to make a finall judgement. I know it needs to loosen up. Maybe it doesn't like our regular gas. I've yet to have a gasser that didn't run better and make better milage when I used the mid grade.
The one thing that I have noticed is that these rigs have what we used to call "soft power" in a snomobile. That means that they are pulling harder than they feel like they are. Since they are not setting you back in the seat they just don't feel like they are gaining speed as fast as the speedo would indicate.
I'll wait till it has some mile to make a finall judgement. I know it needs to loosen up. Maybe it doesn't like our regular gas. I've yet to have a gasser that didn't run better and make better milage when I used the mid grade.
i tried the tow/haul mode - i did not realize any change.
i think floored the truck would keep up with my tundra double cab (no sports car - 5600lbs with 265hp around 300 torque) but over fifty it felt really doggy compared to my tundra and the 6.4. what suprised me was that at half/2/3's throttle it did not react much. not until i really hit it did it go. for example - going up a 2-3% grade on ramp from zero to 75 to merge with traffic i had to really get into the throttle to get up and go. with the 6.4 things were smoother as i could go 1/2 throttle and smoothly accelerate all the way to the freeway. that is just what i felt.
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From: San Antonio, TX
I agree with what everyone has said above. These trucks brand new are not as responsive as when they have some miles on them. With my '05 it was around 6k miles with a steady improvement up to 15k miles. On my '08 it was around 7,500k (more highway time, less hours on the motor). 150 hours or so seems to be the spot.
My top speed is 96 MPH by the way. PCM limited.
Did the V10 truck you test drive have the optional 20" wheels and 4.10 gears? The tires on the 20" wheels are 34" tall. A little tall for 4.10s in my opinion. That's why I got mine with 4.30s.
My top speed is 96 MPH by the way. PCM limited.
Did the V10 truck you test drive have the optional 20" wheels and 4.10 gears? The tires on the 20" wheels are 34" tall. A little tall for 4.10s in my opinion. That's why I got mine with 4.30s.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Montoursville, PA
I haven't driven any of the new V10s. My 2000 is pretty responsive - for a truck. If I want to drive a more responsive sportier car, I hop in the Jag. If I want to drive a still more responsive, sportier car, I'll hop in a Miata or something of that sort. Keep in mind that we are still talking about 3/4-ton and 1-ton trucks here. The Tundra may still be a pickup, but it's a 1/2-ton rating and really is not in the same class at all as these trucks.
I do understand your concern of the revvy nature. The first time I drove an Excursion, I noticed the same issue, that it felt it needed to get up in the revs before it had any power (but this one I later found had other problems). The V10 is a fairly revvy motor. Think about it - it has a 5300 RPM redline, whereas my old Suburban had a 4000 RPM redline with the 454. That's a huge difference in terms of the target power band. Even though the horsepower and torque numbers are pretty impressive, that grunt isn't as far down as you'd probably think. But, the motor does love to rev and is very smooth at revs, especially for a truck motor in a configuration (V10) that is frequently stereotyped as a rough engine design. But the V10 is a revvy motor, and although people do talk about its torque it is no 454 or 460, at least not compared to the ones that I used to drive.
I know on my truck the transmission frequently feels like it won't downshift soon enough, and I have to put my foot in it pretty hard to make it downshift. I'm not sure if in 2000 they had the adaptive transmission, but if it does I probably just need to disconnect the battery and try again.
Personally, I would not buy a 6.4 unless I was doing a lot of heavy towing (>15,000 miles/year). It is a new design, and is probably going to have problems within the first few years, similar to the growing pains many 6.0 owners had. If you're like me, though, you probably tow under 10,000 miles/year, and your truck sees a good sum of around-town use. Not great for a diesel, and I predict that 6.4 will cost a whole ton of money to repair when it breaks. The emissions system on it alone is going to cost a fortune to repair. The repair cost and my lack of need for a diesel's towing capability is the reason why I bought a V10 Excursion in the first place.
I do understand your concern of the revvy nature. The first time I drove an Excursion, I noticed the same issue, that it felt it needed to get up in the revs before it had any power (but this one I later found had other problems). The V10 is a fairly revvy motor. Think about it - it has a 5300 RPM redline, whereas my old Suburban had a 4000 RPM redline with the 454. That's a huge difference in terms of the target power band. Even though the horsepower and torque numbers are pretty impressive, that grunt isn't as far down as you'd probably think. But, the motor does love to rev and is very smooth at revs, especially for a truck motor in a configuration (V10) that is frequently stereotyped as a rough engine design. But the V10 is a revvy motor, and although people do talk about its torque it is no 454 or 460, at least not compared to the ones that I used to drive.
I know on my truck the transmission frequently feels like it won't downshift soon enough, and I have to put my foot in it pretty hard to make it downshift. I'm not sure if in 2000 they had the adaptive transmission, but if it does I probably just need to disconnect the battery and try again.
Personally, I would not buy a 6.4 unless I was doing a lot of heavy towing (>15,000 miles/year). It is a new design, and is probably going to have problems within the first few years, similar to the growing pains many 6.0 owners had. If you're like me, though, you probably tow under 10,000 miles/year, and your truck sees a good sum of around-town use. Not great for a diesel, and I predict that 6.4 will cost a whole ton of money to repair when it breaks. The emissions system on it alone is going to cost a fortune to repair. The repair cost and my lack of need for a diesel's towing capability is the reason why I bought a V10 Excursion in the first place.
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I don't think driving an empty truck of this type really gives you much real world impression. If you're buying a 250 as a grocery getter, well...there are other issues at work. A few of my friends drive Titans or Tundras. We all went camping a few weeks back and I drove my F250 V10 (05 with 106K on it) and towed my fifth wheel (8000 pounds give or take) and a few large men in the cab. Everyone of the guys were impressed at how the truck handled the load and more impressed with how quiet it is and how smoothly it rode. We got 9.5 mpg running about 65-70 mph. Running these trucks with a big load is where they shine.
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No data to back it up but from what I've read here on this site on the 05+ 3V motors, the computer limits max power to third gear at or around 3k. When you have 450 ft lbs on tap, why worry about unloaded accel? If you want to go fast, don't buy a SD, get a sports car! I hate people saying it doesn't compare when floored. Hook a 10k trailer (ooops, sorry, most 1/2 ton truck can't handle that load 
) and then compare the two and I'm sure you will agree that there is ZERO comparison. I've owned a Lightening and a regular F150 5.0 and yes they both were probably faster but I sold both to tow. Neither could tow 8k without jeopardizing the drivetrain as an 8k load would with any 1/2 ton truck.
Want to tow 6+K IMO, get a SD.
Want to go fast and pretend to really tow, get something else that is probably faster unloaded but who cares. Most SD's come in at 7K + unloaded. A 1/2 ton truck plus a 3k trailer may hit 7k total!
What a joke of a comparison. Want a toy or a tow rig? Your choice but be smart if your going to tow a large trailer as the smaller 1/2 ton trucks can't safely handle heavy towing loads.
) and then compare the two and I'm sure you will agree that there is ZERO comparison. I've owned a Lightening and a regular F150 5.0 and yes they both were probably faster but I sold both to tow. Neither could tow 8k without jeopardizing the drivetrain as an 8k load would with any 1/2 ton truck.Want to tow 6+K IMO, get a SD.
Want to go fast and pretend to really tow, get something else that is probably faster unloaded but who cares. Most SD's come in at 7K + unloaded. A 1/2 ton truck plus a 3k trailer may hit 7k total!
What a joke of a comparison. Want a toy or a tow rig? Your choice but be smart if your going to tow a large trailer as the smaller 1/2 ton trucks can't safely handle heavy towing loads.
Last edited by GT4point6; Oct 24, 2007 at 11:49 PM.
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From: Montoursville, PA
Good point, Kevin. People are comparing the wrong things when they talk about the 1/2-ton trucks vs. the 3/4-ton trucks. When I had a Dodge with the Cummins in it, the folks over on those forums would always get into the debate of whether the Cummins was faster than the Hemi. Unloaded, I really don't know. But I challenged any of them to hook up a 10,000 lb trailer and give it a shot. 
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Originally Posted by GT4point6
No data to back it up but from what I've read here on this site on the 05+ 3V motors, the computer limits max power to third gear at or around 3k. When you have 450 ft lbs on tap, why worry about unloaded accel? If you want to go fast, don't buy a SD, get a sports car! I hate people saying it doesn't compare when floored. Hook a 10k trailer (ooops, sorry, most 1/2 ton truck can't handle that load ) and then compare the two and I'm sure you will agree that there is ZERO comparison. I've owned a Lightening and a regular F150 5.0 and yes they both were probably faster but I sold both to tow. Neither could tow 8k without jeopardizing the drivetrain as an 8k load would with any 1/2 ton truck.
Want to tow 6+K IMO, get a SD.
Want to go fast and pretend to really tow, get something else that is probably faster unloaded but who cares. Most SD's come in at 7K + unloaded. A 1/2 ton truck plus a 3k trailer may hit 7k total!
What a joke of a comparison. Want a toy or a tow rig? Your choice but be smart if your going to tow a large trailer as the smaller 1/2 ton trucks can't safely handle heavy towing loads.
) and then compare the two and I'm sure you will agree that there is ZERO comparison. I've owned a Lightening and a regular F150 5.0 and yes they both were probably faster but I sold both to tow. Neither could tow 8k without jeopardizing the drivetrain as an 8k load would with any 1/2 ton truck.Want to tow 6+K IMO, get a SD.
Want to go fast and pretend to really tow, get something else that is probably faster unloaded but who cares. Most SD's come in at 7K + unloaded. A 1/2 ton truck plus a 3k trailer may hit 7k total!
What a joke of a comparison. Want a toy or a tow rig? Your choice but be smart if your going to tow a large trailer as the smaller 1/2 ton trucks can't safely handle heavy towing loads.
the v10 and 6.4 had 18 inch tires.
yes, i have made my decision and will be putting my order in this wk.
thx for all the advice.-----------------
Last edited by theoshin; Oct 25, 2007 at 07:11 AM.
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My 05 got faster feeling after 150 hours but even from day one it always felt more responsive than my diesels when taking off. At highway speeds the V10 needs more pedal than the diesels did to get up and go but it does.
I still am most impressed with my truck when I am towing my Montana Fifth wheel. My combined weight is 20800 and the way this truck get's up to speed and pulls grades is a pure joy and I have 4.10s
The drive by wire has some quirks and to make mine more responsive I can hold the brakes on, tap the go pedal and then take off. Doing this, it is very hard not to break the tires free and it feels more like a mechanical throttle.
Another odd thing is after an idle period of more than 5 minutes, mine will be be extra responsive to the gas feed and that is why the very first time I drove it, I laid a big patch of rubber.
I still am most impressed with my truck when I am towing my Montana Fifth wheel. My combined weight is 20800 and the way this truck get's up to speed and pulls grades is a pure joy and I have 4.10s
The drive by wire has some quirks and to make mine more responsive I can hold the brakes on, tap the go pedal and then take off. Doing this, it is very hard not to break the tires free and it feels more like a mechanical throttle.
Another odd thing is after an idle period of more than 5 minutes, mine will be be extra responsive to the gas feed and that is why the very first time I drove it, I laid a big patch of rubber.
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First around here a tundra is considered to be a car (just pokin fun).
You really want the PSD so get it. I think you are thinking to logically about this. Being a doctor I am sure you are a more logical type thinker, working with computers i tend to be the same way (more binary). the situation you have is the conflict between what you want the answer to be and what works out on paper. I wanted a PSD at first but after looking at the facts the v10 was a better choice for me in many ways. Being a binary type person once I saw the answer I could not over come the fact that I was paying 5K extra for something I did not need (I chose to spend the money on another toy). That being said I was somewhat on the fence to start with so it was easier for me to be swayed. I got my truck to haul a car trailer and daily driver, I think it excels at both. I did not get my truck to race tundras or PSD or hemis, for me how it towed and handled loaded were what was important. I put an 700 lb ATV in the bed and except when I look in the mirror I do not know it is back there. One thing that was different in my case was I knew I wanted a SD and planned on keeping it for a long time so resale was not a huge concern (my vehicles are almost ready for the scrap yard before I let them go). I did not even drive the 4 hours to test drive one, I ordered a v10 on faith from these boards.
I think you should get the PSD because you will always be thinking it would have been a better choice and you will not enjoy your truck as much as you should. I think it would suck to be writing that big of a check every month and have regrets about it. It the PSD does not live up to your expectation you will know whether you want to switch brands or fuel type.
Just my opinion
You really want the PSD so get it. I think you are thinking to logically about this. Being a doctor I am sure you are a more logical type thinker, working with computers i tend to be the same way (more binary). the situation you have is the conflict between what you want the answer to be and what works out on paper. I wanted a PSD at first but after looking at the facts the v10 was a better choice for me in many ways. Being a binary type person once I saw the answer I could not over come the fact that I was paying 5K extra for something I did not need (I chose to spend the money on another toy). That being said I was somewhat on the fence to start with so it was easier for me to be swayed. I got my truck to haul a car trailer and daily driver, I think it excels at both. I did not get my truck to race tundras or PSD or hemis, for me how it towed and handled loaded were what was important. I put an 700 lb ATV in the bed and except when I look in the mirror I do not know it is back there. One thing that was different in my case was I knew I wanted a SD and planned on keeping it for a long time so resale was not a huge concern (my vehicles are almost ready for the scrap yard before I let them go). I did not even drive the 4 hours to test drive one, I ordered a v10 on faith from these boards.
I think you should get the PSD because you will always be thinking it would have been a better choice and you will not enjoy your truck as much as you should. I think it would suck to be writing that big of a check every month and have regrets about it. It the PSD does not live up to your expectation you will know whether you want to switch brands or fuel type.
Just my opinion
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Originally Posted by Bagger
First around here a tundra is considered to be a car (just pokin fun).
You really want the PSD so get it. I think you are thinking to logically about this. Being a doctor I am sure you are a more logical type thinker, working with computers i tend to be the same way (more binary). the situation you have is the conflict between what you want the answer to be and what works out on paper. I wanted a PSD at first but after looking at the facts the v10 was a better choice for me in many ways. Being a binary type person once I saw the answer I could not over come the fact that I was paying 5K extra for something I did not need (I chose to spend the money on another toy). That being said I was somewhat on the fence to start with so it was easier for me to be swayed. I got my truck to haul a car trailer and daily driver, I think it excels at both. I did not get my truck to race tundras or PSD or hemis, for me how it towed and handled loaded were what was important. I put an 700 lb ATV in the bed and except when I look in the mirror I do not know it is back there. One thing that was different in my case was I knew I wanted a SD and planned on keeping it for a long time so resale was not a huge concern (my vehicles are almost ready for the scrap yard before I let them go). I did not even drive the 4 hours to test drive one, I ordered a v10 on faith from these boards.
I think you should get the PSD because you will always be thinking it would have been a better choice and you will not enjoy your truck as much as you should. I think it would suck to be writing that big of a check every month and have regrets about it. It the PSD does not live up to your expectation you will know whether you want to switch brands or fuel type.
thx
i am ordering a psd. if i have problems under war i will sell it after 4 yrs. if not i will keep it longer. the emmisions are covered longer.
i dont race. - i have 1 speeding ticket in my life. but i travel lots of county road in a retirement community - you can do the math. when i am on call and get called in or late because of the kids to work i cant putz behind grandma doing 45 in a 55 or the county worker in his truck out for a joy ride. (happens every day). i dont speed over 9 over but do have places to go.
yeh = i have a degree in mathematical economics and genetics so you can see how hard it is to go against everyone's logic here. i have never bought anything major because i wanted it - only if i NEEDED it.
thx for the feedback.
Just my opinion
You really want the PSD so get it. I think you are thinking to logically about this. Being a doctor I am sure you are a more logical type thinker, working with computers i tend to be the same way (more binary). the situation you have is the conflict between what you want the answer to be and what works out on paper. I wanted a PSD at first but after looking at the facts the v10 was a better choice for me in many ways. Being a binary type person once I saw the answer I could not over come the fact that I was paying 5K extra for something I did not need (I chose to spend the money on another toy). That being said I was somewhat on the fence to start with so it was easier for me to be swayed. I got my truck to haul a car trailer and daily driver, I think it excels at both. I did not get my truck to race tundras or PSD or hemis, for me how it towed and handled loaded were what was important. I put an 700 lb ATV in the bed and except when I look in the mirror I do not know it is back there. One thing that was different in my case was I knew I wanted a SD and planned on keeping it for a long time so resale was not a huge concern (my vehicles are almost ready for the scrap yard before I let them go). I did not even drive the 4 hours to test drive one, I ordered a v10 on faith from these boards.
I think you should get the PSD because you will always be thinking it would have been a better choice and you will not enjoy your truck as much as you should. I think it would suck to be writing that big of a check every month and have regrets about it. It the PSD does not live up to your expectation you will know whether you want to switch brands or fuel type.
thx
i am ordering a psd. if i have problems under war i will sell it after 4 yrs. if not i will keep it longer. the emmisions are covered longer.
i dont race. - i have 1 speeding ticket in my life. but i travel lots of county road in a retirement community - you can do the math. when i am on call and get called in or late because of the kids to work i cant putz behind grandma doing 45 in a 55 or the county worker in his truck out for a joy ride. (happens every day). i dont speed over 9 over but do have places to go.
yeh = i have a degree in mathematical economics and genetics so you can see how hard it is to go against everyone's logic here. i have never bought anything major because i wanted it - only if i NEEDED it.
thx for the feedback.
Just my opinion
thx
i am ordering a psd. if i have problems under war i will sell it after 4 yrs. if not i will keep it longer. the emmisions are covered longer.
i dont race. - i have 1 speeding ticket in my life. but i travel lots of county road in a retirement community - you can do the math. when i am on call and get called in or late because of the kids to work i cant putz behind grandma doing 45 in a 55 or the county worker in his truck out for a joy ride. (happens every day). i dont speed over 9 over but do have places to go.
yeh = i have a degree in mathematical economics and genetics so you can see how hard it is to go against everyone's logic here. i have never bought anything major because i wanted it - only if i NEEDED it.
thx for the feedback.