I've got a '67 F100, 352 2bbl, with a C4 tranny.. all this agrees with the VIN on the plate. Anyhow, the engine's needing a rebuild something fierce. I bought another engine from a friend of mine's grandfather, we both thought it was a 352, so I was going to fix it up a little, and swap them out. Turns out it's a 390. it's a 4bbl, out of a '65 Galaxie 500, if I remember right. It's been bored out .040 over, and it needs another bore, but I don't want to run it at .060 over. The heads have had a valve job done, hardened valves, new seats, guides, etc. They've not been used since that was done. Here's the dilemma: I want to use the 352 block if at all possible, but I'd like to save a little cash, and if I can use this set of nice 390 heads, that'd be a great help. Any ideas, or suggestions on other parts these two engines could share?

Thanks,
Ladd

 

As far as performance goes, the 390 is the way to go, most of the gain is from stroke and that give a huge advantage in low end torque and the 390 with few mods can be a FUN engine!

going 60 over in a 390 is no problem, it's the last bore I'd do without a sonic check and I've run 60 over with no problems. The blocks, other than the bore should be the same so I don't see any advantage of keeping the 352 block. You MIGHT be able to make the 352 go to 390 +40 and use the pistons but I really doubt that as the 352 is a different bore and I think the wall are different than the 390.

I'd personally either go 60 over with the 390, or check the pistons for overall condition then find a used block for cheap and have the block bored to the pistons. Do the normal FE oiling system mods before sending it out to be cleaned and run a HV oil pump. This setup will give excellent power and won't cost too much, a used 360/390 block goes for about $40 around here. I was given one by a machine shop that had a spare because one of mine was repaired with epoxy one time. Some older machine shops have them sitting around in piles.

 

Ladd, 060 over is not a problem in a 390. I'm running 060 over in a 67 block and have had no problems whatsoever. Where folks get the idea this is too much is a mystery to me, pently of 390s have been bored to 428 size without any worry at all (080 over). As Karl said however, do the oiling fixes, this IS worth some worry. If you want some other options you could go 050 over on the 352 block and get std size 390 pistons and put the 390 crank/rods in there. Don't throw anything away, save all your left over pieces, if you don't want them one of us might. DF

 

> Ladd, 060 over is not
>a problem in a 390.
>I'm running 060 over in
>a 67 block and have
>had no problems whatsoever. Where
>folks get the idea this
>is too much is a
>mystery to me, pently of
>390s have been bored to
>428 size without any worry
>at all (080 over).


People get the idea from sonic testing blocks and having them fail the sonic test. remember the cheap 428 they built in all the magazines a while ago? didn't he go through 5 blocks before I got one to work for it? it might have only been 4

 

Ladd, the heads will fit either block so set them aside and let them wait while you deciede what to do next. Keep in mind that Ford used the same design for several differant displacements and ran a 4.13 bore on a 428. Why is it that you feel uncomfortable at 060 over ( 4.110) ? What does the shop doing the work think about your block ? Would they prefer a 050 over job on the 352 block (4.050) ? This would allow 390 STD pistons and will fit nicely. How about knocking out the casting plugs on your block and looking at how much room there is for water between the bores, this can help you make a guess as to how thick are the walls. If you have a sonic tester available it might calm your fears. Let us know what you do. DF

 

where it problems with over boring comes from is that the manufacturing of that day had big problems with core shift. This causes the cylinders to be uneven in thickness. When overboring is done, you risk being to close to the water jacket. It is a real concern with FE engines. The 352 can be bored to stock 390 specs easily. Use the 390 crank, rods etc and you have a 390. If you had money or sonic testing, youmay be able to bore the 390 out to 428 specs, but I wouldn't do it without checking the block first.With the 390 crank, you'll have a 406. Have fun. Pete's Ponies

 

Well, what I was wondering originally was if I could keep the 352 bore/stroke intact, and just use the 390 heads, or the 390 heads/intake, since it would be easier on my limited finances than having the original 352 heads redone. But what I've read has brought a new option to light for me. If I can take the 352 block out to a std. 390 bore, I could use the 390's crank (.010/.010), rods, and pistons (a new set, of course), that might be interesting. So unless I'm mistaken, the 390's heads/intake will also sit on top of the block, right? If I take the route of boring the 352, and installing the 390 components, what other mods would I need to do? Anything regarding oil/water? What about the main bearings? Also, is it feasible to keep the 352 bore and use the 390 heads? I'm trying to learn as much as I can, so be patient with me, please.

Ladd

 

Whoops, forgot to add a couple of lines to my last post..
At the shop I was talking to about the 390 block, the machinists didn't seem to think the 390's block would be worth boring, mainly because they weren't sure even .060 over could save it.
And, one reply said do the normal FE oiling mods.. Please don't laugh too much at this, but I have no idea what these mods are. Like I said, I'm learning, and this has been a great help so far.

Ladd

 

The heads will work fine so no problem there. I do like to port match the water port in the front of each head to the port in the intake, but that's not a big deal.

The standard FE oiling mods are to drill out the 3/8" passage from the oil pump to the oil filter pad to either 7/16" or 1/2" and clean up the sharp edges with a die grinder. Use a die grinder to match up the ports on the main bearing saddles to the hole in the bearing, but don't remove too much and grinding the back of the bearing to help match up is good too. Optionally you can restrict the oil flow to the valves by inserting a Holley carb jet or a drilled rod under the rocker arm stand where the oil passage is. Some drill out the long passage from the oil filter base to the cam bearing but I passed on that one. Most use a HV oil pump, but I opted for the HV/HP type and always use a good ARP oil pump shaft.

Deep sump oil pan or overfilled stock oil pan is best with the HV type pumps to keep it from going dry, usually 6+ qts is best.

Old FE's had a small port oil filter adapter and later ones used a larger port one that is much prefered.

I've heard about drilling out the passage to the rear main but didn't see any pics and passed on that as well.

By far, the most important thing is to match the main bearing holes with the saddle, drill out the oil pump to oil filter passage to at least 7/16" and smooth out the sharp edges.

 

Well, I don't know if anyone is still paying any attention to this thread, but here goes..
I've been thinking more about putting the 390 heads on top of the 352.. I read a post in the forum about trucks of this year, and another guy has done this. He used the pushrods from the 390, and the connecting rods from the 352.. To my way of thinking, that's just about right? any ideas?

Ladd

 

I did it again.. forgot to add something to my last post.. I wish I'd quit doing that.. anyway, how much trouble would it be, or could it cause, if I was to try and put the 390's cam in the 352? Would it even do any good?

Thanks,
Ladd

 

The pushrods should be the same, so that shouldn't matter. The connecting rods are different, the 390's are much thicker at the bottom and I think would be a different length too, so if you are going to keep the 352, use the 352's rods. As far as the cam goes, that's a toss up. The 390 probably has a larger cam and that could make a difference in performance, but if you really care about performance then forget the 352 and get a 390 setup. If you do switch the cam, get new lifters or reuse the old ones in the exact same position after checking for wear. The cam should be coded with letter and some have color markings, but most stock FE cams are mild anyways until you get into the 428/427/390GT... Some of the common cams are listed in the Ford Performance and HiPo Ford Interchange books sold here.

Again, for the time and effort, I'd build a 390. Even if you have to buy new pistons or scroung up a different block, the performance difference is big.

 

Ladd, a lot of good advice posted here. If your 390 won’t clean up with .060” over, I’d bore your 352 out .050” over to the standard 390 bore of 4.05”. Then use the 390 crank and rods. The 4V cam is pretty lame, almost any aftermarket grind would be better. Cam swapping is kind of a chore in the FE so make a good selection. Have your machinist enlarge the oil passage from the pump to the filter adapter as described above. Also have him match the oil holes in the main bearing saddles to the oil holes in the bearing inserts. If your oil filter adapter has the filter pointing down, swap it out with one off a ’68 or later engine. If the filter points out straight, just use it.

Now I have a question. In your original post you say you have a 352 with a C4 and that agrees with the VIN on the plate. Could you double-check that combination? There is a VIN decoder at http://web.p3.net/~shoman/67TRUC%7E1.HTM and others you can check. Also if you don’t mind crawling underneath, take a magnet to the case or center section of the tranny and see if it sticks. While you’re there, check out the shape of the pan and compare it to the diagrams at http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tbeeee/page/Auto-Trans.html to see what you really have. Reason is, Ford technically never mated the FE to the C4 even thought there are some misprints in some shop manuals showing that there are some. I (and others) would love to see this mythical C4 bellhousing with an FE bolt pattern. Sure would appreciate it.

Barry

 

well, life could get interesting after all.. hehe.. I really thought it was a C4 'cause of the G tranny code. a friend of mine had a book with the codes in it, and that's what it said.. but anyhow, I'll take a look at the tranny here in a couple of minutes, after I study a bit on those links you gave.

Ladd

 

I don't know if I got lucky or what, but the VIN plate on my truck is perfectly legible. VIN is F10YDB54213.
WB 131, color M6, Body D81, Trans G, Axle 08, Max GVW 5,000, Net HP 172, RPM 4000, D.S.O. 61. I looked at the tranny, and I'll be darned if it ain't the Cruise-o-Matic (gotta love that name) FMX... My first hint on seeing the page with the pics of the pans load was the Cruise-o-matic label, which I had read in the owner's manual, but I checked it anyhow. Thanks for getting me straightened out there.