410 buildup advice needed

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Oct 19, 2001 | 01:55 AM

#16

gtex

Lead Driver

Joined: Apr 2001

Posts: 6,175

Likes: 21

From: Texas

410 buildup advice needed

Fordsnharleys,

Could you run the desktop dyno for my setup?

-390 bord over .020
-pistons are dished (I believe, indented pattern on top) and they come within about 1/4" or 3/16" from flush to the deck.
-stock heads
-long style headers with 1.75" primary tubes.
-Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
-Edelbrock Performer 750 CFM carb.
-The Crower Power Beast cam with the following specs.
Grind Lobe Center :292H/112D
Advertised Duration (Intake): 292, (Exhaust) : 302
Duration @ 0.50 in. (Intake) : 214, (Exhaust) :224
Gross Lift(1.76/1.76) (Intake): .521", (Exhaust): .547

I'm also running full MSD ignition, 6AL, Billet Distributor, 8.5mm Wires and one of their upgrade coils.

Looking for HP in the 5500 rpm range and possibly provide 6000rpm HP numbers if I went with the Edelbrock Al heads with the larger valves.

That looks like some fun software, what ,where and how much?

Thanks,
Greg

Oct 19, 2001 | 02:28 AM

#17

Ratsmoker

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Joined: Feb 2001

Posts: 6,624

Likes: 8

From: Missouri

410 buildup advice needed

I will post the flow numbers again when I get home. I am at work right now.

Oct 19, 2001 | 09:35 AM

#18

karlsd

Thread Starter

Elder User

Joined: Aug 2001

Posts: 962

Likes: 2

From: Collierville, TN

410 buildup advice needed

Thanks! That looks reasonable, and the CR comes very close to my estimate (I think the difference is that I wasn't assuming quite so much additional volume from the piston dish).

I assume those figures are "gross", i.e., before accessory drain and driveline losses. Anyone have any figures or estimates for how much power I'll lose to the alternator, power steering pump, and AC compressor (I'm strongly leaning toward an electric fan)? What about driveline losses through the C6 and open 3.25:1 diff?

Keep in mind that I expect to dyno the truck when it's all put back together (next summer, probably). I'll post the actual rear wheel numbers then.

karlsd a/k/a "ksd"
69 F100 Explorer 360/C6

Oct 19, 2001 | 01:55 PM

#19

Ratsmoker

Post Fiend

Joined: Feb 2001

Posts: 6,624

Likes: 8

From: Missouri

410 buildup advice needed

-------428CJ 30deg.seat--------Stock Ebok 30 deg.seat--
-lift--intake-----exhaust--------intake-----exhaust----
0.050---34.0-------20.8-----------34.8--------20.8-----
0.100---75.7-------46.0-----------69.9--------47.3-----
0.200--150.0-------84.8----------143.4--------91.2-----
0.300--202.0------118.1----------193.3-------123.8-----
0.400--228.1------145.3----------230.4-------153.6-----
0.500--235.8------162.7----------252.5-------182.2-----
0.600--242.9------173.9----------249.5-------197.8-----
0.650----------------------------252.5-----------------
0.700-------------181.2----------------------205.1-----
0.800----------------------------------------208.9-----

Oct 19, 2001 | 05:44 PM

#20

FE427TP

Laughing Gas

Joined: Oct 1999

Posts: 1,188

Likes: 0

From: yes

410 buildup advice needed

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 19-Oct-01 AT 06:47 PM (EST)[/font][p]wow, I have flow numbers for C4AE-G heads and they flow better at mid to high lift than the CJ's for the intake and a lot better on the exhaust up to .550 lift that's with the smaller valves too, interesting.

Lift Int Exh
.200 130 111
.300 180 135
.400 220 155
.500 236 165
.550 245 165

Oct 19, 2001 | 07:26 PM

#21

bsprowl

Tuned

Joined: Jul 2001

Posts: 430

Likes: 0

From: Deatsville, AL

410 buildup advice needed

So what's your source or did you flow them yourself? And what's your guess for the highed Edelbroick exhaust flow?

What if any porting was doen to the CJ heads?

I've never seen any FE nubers before only Ch*%y small block.

Thanks

Bob
'66 7 Litre, top loader, 3.25 Traction-lock, Sidewinder Intake, SCJ Exhaust
'88 F150 LWB 4x2, XLT Lariat, 302, 5 speed, 3.08
'99 Ranger, 4x2, 3.0, 5 speed, 3.73 posi

Oct 20, 2001 | 12:45 AM

#22

fordsnharleys

Junior User

Joined: Aug 2001

Posts: 61

Likes: 0

410 buildup advice needed

Karlsd, the piston dishes displace 17cc less than flattops, and one more thing, how much exactly do the pistons sit below the deck in inches to the closest hundreth? your compression ratio will be even less if your pistons sit below the deck, and yeah, the power numbers are at the crank, I read an article in car craft a long time ago, power steering typically only draws about a third of a horsepower, an alternator slightly less, and a/c , I have no clue, probably a lot when on.

gtex, on your setup when you describe indentions in the pistons, are they the stock valve reliefs, or are they dished like a bowl, heres the power numbers with stock pistons:
1)326 hp@5000
2)407 ft-lbs@3500
another thing, are you sure the pistons sit that far below the deck? if so you only have a 7.5:1 compression ratio, if you have dished pistons it will be even lower.
this program does not take into account ignition upgrades, just add 5-10 horsepower for it.
this program is made By Mr. Gasket company, its called Desktop Dyno. I have the original, the newer versions are MUCH better.
I ordered it from Jeg's. This one cannot take into account actual head flow numbers Ratsmoker, the only options are valve size and porting or not.
Justin

Oct 20, 2001 | 01:18 PM

#23

Ratsmoker

Post Fiend

Joined: Feb 2001

Posts: 6,624

Likes: 8

From: Missouri

410 buildup advice needed

These numbers were gotten from the same website as 427TP was talking about from a guy who flowed them. I don't know the guys level of expertise or what size bore tube he used. He used 28 inches of h2O. The edelbrock heads didn't flow as well as edelbrock advertises.

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Oct 20, 2001 | 07:00 PM

#24

bsprowl

Tuned

Joined: Jul 2001

Posts: 430

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From: Deatsville, AL

410 buildup advice needed

Edelbrock, like most manufacturer's, tends to use optimal conditions. I would be surprised if they used any cylinder. Wish I could afford a flow bench then I could get real numbers. Of course, I'd also need a place to put it ...

Bob
'66 7 Litre, top loader, 3.25 Traction-lock, Sidewinder Intake, SCJ Exhaust
'88 F150 LWB 4x2, XLT Lariat, 302, 5 speed, 3.08
'99 Ranger, 4x2, 3.0, 5 speed, 3.73 posi

Oct 21, 2001 | 04:05 AM

#25

gtex

Lead Driver

Joined: Apr 2001

Posts: 6,175

Likes: 21

From: Texas

410 buildup advice needed

Fordsnharleys and others,

My pistons have a patterned indention, I'd guess it to be only a few CCs in volume. They are not a smooth bowl shape. Is that just a "valve relief"? If so, are they stock? They have a .020 marking on them, I thought referred to the last rebuild boring. Is it possible to go .020 over and use the old pistons? Should these pistons come flush to the deck? Would it even run on 87 octane at 7.5/1 compression? It currently runs about the same on 87 or 93. Thanks for any info.

Greg

Oct 21, 2001 | 11:37 PM

#26

fordsnharleys

Junior User

Joined: Aug 2001

Posts: 61

Likes: 0

410 buildup advice needed

gtex, I would say that they are just the valve reliefs found on all fe's, they are called "flycuts" sometimes, is it one big indention or 4 small indentions shaped like half moons? and the lower the compression the lower the octane and cheaper the gas you could run. on that compression ratio you could run the cheapest gas you could find, my 390 will not run on any lower than 95 octane without detonation., but the heads have been milled down, I think I probably have more like 11:1 compression and a lot of carbon buildup thanx to my rich running carb. it sounds like those pistons are not coming even close to the top of the block, thats what ruins your compression, they may not be stock ford type pistons, they may be too short. and the .020 means they are .020 oversize pistons.
Justin