air molicule induction???
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From: missouri
air molicule induction???
when you run a diesel low on fuel and it surges it speeds up like crazy... correct (mine does)
my question is is there a way to add air to the fuel to get that kind of contuniuos surge??? (example add lp gas to help burn cleaner) and what ill efects from this (burnt valves higher egt's) what I mean by adding air to the fuel is like a air pump timed with the ip to add just the right amount of air to all the lines at the correct timming and of course this would be in the 1,000 rpm range or higher...
has this ever been tried?? I know I'm not smart enough to do it!!!
my question is is there a way to add air to the fuel to get that kind of contuniuos surge??? (example add lp gas to help burn cleaner) and what ill efects from this (burnt valves higher egt's) what I mean by adding air to the fuel is like a air pump timed with the ip to add just the right amount of air to all the lines at the correct timming and of course this would be in the 1,000 rpm range or higher...
has this ever been tried?? I know I'm not smart enough to do it!!!
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
THere is such a thing as injecting air into the chamber to aid in fuel atomization, there is a term for it, but i forget what it is. An overly simplistic way to describe it, is to think of how a paint sprayer works to atomize the paint fluid.
I suspect the surge you feel when running one of these trucks dry is actually caused by the IP internal controls going haywire, since it uses hyrdaulic pressure (among other things) to control the fuel map. I don't know about you, but when I ran my tank dry and it pushed harder than normal after switching tanks, it just puked black smoke. Then eventially calmed back down.
I suspect the surge you feel when running one of these trucks dry is actually caused by the IP internal controls going haywire, since it uses hyrdaulic pressure (among other things) to control the fuel map. I don't know about you, but when I ran my tank dry and it pushed harder than normal after switching tanks, it just puked black smoke. Then eventially calmed back down.
Cargo Master
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Duluth, Mn.
I've been mulling the same thing over while driving 90 miles to work. The thing, I'd think, that would be the problem would be injecting it after the IP, whaile the fuel is @ 10,000 psi, or higher???
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
Originally Posted by cookie88
Turbocharger.
The system I saw, basicly had a second high pressure injector right next to the fuel injector, and the firing paths of both injuctors converge at a calculated location in the combustion chamber. One injector fires fuel, the other fires air, some versions had an integrated injector (i think). The Idea is to force the fuel to atomize even further than it normally would from simple direct injection, and prahaps reduce "hot spots" that prevent running lean mixture ratios. The use of a high output compressor makes it impractical.
I think it was also shown on a gasser, not a diesel.
I'd be tempted to shoot water/methonal in through the second injector, not much but enough to control combustion temps.
Both are probably more work than its worth.
Post Fiend
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Nutter Fort, WV
The surge of power is a short term thing.
What happens is this.
The injector is set to open at a specific pressure, lets say 2000 PSI.
Then it is set to close at a specific pressure after it fires, lets say 1500 PSI.
When the injection line is full of fuel and no air, this drop happens rather fast since you can not compress liquids very much.
But you can compress air quite readily.
So when you are sucking air into the fuel system it makes it to the injection pump where it is compressed to 2000 PSI to open the injector.
But since the compressed air expands readily it forces a lot more fuel out of the injection line before the pressure drops enough for the injector to close.
After that breif surge, now the IP is out of fuel and the surge is gone.
If you blew air into the injection lines after every firing cycle, there would be more air than fuel in the line.
So the power surge would not happen, instead the power would drop off.
What happens is this.
The injector is set to open at a specific pressure, lets say 2000 PSI.
Then it is set to close at a specific pressure after it fires, lets say 1500 PSI.
When the injection line is full of fuel and no air, this drop happens rather fast since you can not compress liquids very much.
But you can compress air quite readily.
So when you are sucking air into the fuel system it makes it to the injection pump where it is compressed to 2000 PSI to open the injector.
But since the compressed air expands readily it forces a lot more fuel out of the injection line before the pressure drops enough for the injector to close.
After that breif surge, now the IP is out of fuel and the surge is gone.
If you blew air into the injection lines after every firing cycle, there would be more air than fuel in the line.
So the power surge would not happen, instead the power would drop off.
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From: missouri
Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle
The surge of power is a short term thing.
What happens is this.
The injector is set to open at a specific pressure, lets say 2000 PSI.
Then it is set to close at a specific pressure after it fires, lets say 1500 PSI.
When the injection line is full of fuel and no air, this drop happens rather fast since you can not compress liquids very much.
But you can compress air quite readily.
So when you are sucking air into the fuel system it makes it to the injection pump where it is compressed to 2000 PSI to open the injector.
But since the compressed air expands readily it forces a lot more fuel out of the injection line before the pressure drops enough for the injector to close.
After that breif surge, now the IP is out of fuel and the surge is gone.
If you blew air into the injection lines after every firing cycle, there would be more air than fuel in the line.
So the power surge would not happen, instead the power would drop off.
What happens is this.
The injector is set to open at a specific pressure, lets say 2000 PSI.
Then it is set to close at a specific pressure after it fires, lets say 1500 PSI.
When the injection line is full of fuel and no air, this drop happens rather fast since you can not compress liquids very much.
But you can compress air quite readily.
So when you are sucking air into the fuel system it makes it to the injection pump where it is compressed to 2000 PSI to open the injector.
But since the compressed air expands readily it forces a lot more fuel out of the injection line before the pressure drops enough for the injector to close.
After that breif surge, now the IP is out of fuel and the surge is gone.
If you blew air into the injection lines after every firing cycle, there would be more air than fuel in the line.
So the power surge would not happen, instead the power would drop off.
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Junior User
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: York, PA
i am not sure how well any secondary injector would work since our engines have a pre cup and are splash plate ignition. our engines dont rely on atomazation. things would be different if it was direct injection though.
i have seen an experamental engine that had two injectors, one for diesel and one for water. basically you had a regular diesel cycle then the secound injector would fire water just like diesel. the water would turn to steam from the heat and expand like fuel firing off. it would run through its cycle just like a fuel shot.
so basically it would alternate between fuel and water constantly using about the same amount of both. he claimed it cut emissions big time and you could put your hand on the engine it ran so cool. forget having to worry about egt's!
i have seen an experamental engine that had two injectors, one for diesel and one for water. basically you had a regular diesel cycle then the secound injector would fire water just like diesel. the water would turn to steam from the heat and expand like fuel firing off. it would run through its cycle just like a fuel shot.
so basically it would alternate between fuel and water constantly using about the same amount of both. he claimed it cut emissions big time and you could put your hand on the engine it ran so cool. forget having to worry about egt's!
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
Originally Posted by j-redsjeep
i am not sure how well any secondary injector would work since our engines have a pre cup and are splash plate ignition. our engines dont rely on atomazation. things would be different if it was direct injection though.
i have seen an experamental engine that had two injectors, one for diesel and one for water. basically you had a regular diesel cycle then the secound injector would fire water just like diesel. the water would turn to steam from the heat and expand like fuel firing off. it would run through its cycle just like a fuel shot.
so basically it would alternate between fuel and water constantly using about the same amount of both. he claimed it cut emissions big time and you could put your hand on the engine it ran so cool. forget having to worry about egt's!
i have seen an experamental engine that had two injectors, one for diesel and one for water. basically you had a regular diesel cycle then the secound injector would fire water just like diesel. the water would turn to steam from the heat and expand like fuel firing off. it would run through its cycle just like a fuel shot.
so basically it would alternate between fuel and water constantly using about the same amount of both. he claimed it cut emissions big time and you could put your hand on the engine it ran so cool. forget having to worry about egt's!
Oh, and the system I saw with a secondary air injector was a dirct injected example.
Do you have a link to that diesel/water engine?
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: York, PA
Originally Posted by David85
Do you have a link to that diesel/water engine?
according to the guy the water was not getting injected with the diesel it was a whole other cycle. it alternated between the two.
Last edited by j-redsjeep; Sep 20, 2007 at 12:29 PM.
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
Originally Posted by j-redsjeep
no wish i did, just saw it on tv one time while surfing and thought it was a real neat idea i would love to play with if i had a ton of extra money and knew how to machine.
according to the guy the water was not getting injected with the diesel it was a whole other cycle. it alternated between the two.
according to the guy the water was not getting injected with the diesel it was a whole other cycle. it alternated between the two.
The first four strokes are normal, but the last two are the water stroke. The idea is to soak up the heat that would normally be wasted through the cylinder wall, and put it to use. It sounds backwards, but by keeping the engine cool, its possible to get leaner fuel mixtures without detonation.He used small diesel engine, and put a carb on it, then used the injection system for the water. I'll be keeping my eye on this, for when he tries a true diesel/water engine.
Turbos and free flowing exhausts are good, but the real loss of the internal combustion engine is through the radiator in the form of unused heat.
Anyway, heres the link:http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...THISWEEKSISSUE