water injection??
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Senior User
Joined: May 2006
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From: dryden,michigan
water injection??
soo im curious about this cuz the setup ive been lookin at looks fairly inexpensive like 400$ is it really worth it tho? do you get better milage or just more power to pull or what i know it drops the egts so then you can run more fuel and all but what if you just put it on with out raisin the fuel im just curious to know more about this system cuz it sounds almost like a good idea it says like 20% power increase soo that would be liek 40 hp and like 70 tq or somthing ?
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2003
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From: Joliet, Illinois
Water injection is for highly boosted engines needing to squeeze a little more power.
On a stock or non turbo diesel engine, it's not going to do much if anything.
Well, then again, it would if you had a gas engine running 14:1 compression ratio on a fuel that would detonate above 9.5:1 then it would artificially raise the octane ratio because it acts as a detonation suppressant giving you more energy out of your fuel getting you more fuel mileage.
On a stock or non turbo diesel engine, it's not going to do much if anything.
Well, then again, it would if you had a gas engine running 14:1 compression ratio on a fuel that would detonate above 9.5:1 then it would artificially raise the octane ratio because it acts as a detonation suppressant giving you more energy out of your fuel getting you more fuel mileage.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,509
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From: Ladner, British Columbia
I agree, a water injection system on 7.3l N/A will do nothing more that maybe rust up your cylinders. Even a turbocharged 7.3l will not do much unless you give it a good boost which they were never designed for.
Nice idea, wrong application.
Seb...
Nice idea, wrong application.
Seb...
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
Originally Posted by Hamberger
I agree, a water injection system on 7.3l N/A will do nothing more that maybe rust up your cylinders. Even a turbocharged 7.3l will not do much unless you give it a good boost which they were never designed for.
Nice idea, wrong application.
Seb...
Nice idea, wrong application.
Seb...
Several high performance WW2 fighter planes used water injection, and most were N/A.
Posting Guru
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From: Joliet, Illinois
Originally Posted by David85
I disagree. Water injection has been around since before turbochargers were used in cars and trucks, first tested in the 1930s.
Several high performance WW2 fighter planes used water injection, and most were N/A.
Several high performance WW2 fighter planes used water injection, and most were N/A.
The turbocharged buick 215 used a water alcohol mixture to supress detonation as the compression was 10:1 even with the low boost turbo.
And if the fluid ran low, it would not go into boost at all.
And there is a guy that took a stock Ford Festiva, upped the compression to 12.7:1 and is using regular pump gas.
He did this to increase his MPG using water as a detonation suppressant and it friggen works well!
But squirting water into a stock diesel is useless!
Well, that is unless you convert it into a 6 stroke, then it will do something to add power on the steam stroke.
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
Originally Posted by archangel
Well, yes, like I said, with ultra high compression you can use it to supress detonation.
The turbocharged buick 215 used a water alcohol mixture to supress detonation as the compression was 10:1 even with the low boost turbo.
And if the fluid ran low, it would not go into boost at all.
And there is a guy that took a stock Ford Festiva, upped the compression to 12.7:1 and is using regular pump gas.
He did this to increase his MPG using water as a detonation suppressant and it friggen works well!
But squirting water into a stock diesel is useless!
Well, that is unless you convert it into a 6 stroke, then it will do something to add power on the steam stroke.
The turbocharged buick 215 used a water alcohol mixture to supress detonation as the compression was 10:1 even with the low boost turbo.
And if the fluid ran low, it would not go into boost at all.
And there is a guy that took a stock Ford Festiva, upped the compression to 12.7:1 and is using regular pump gas.
He did this to increase his MPG using water as a detonation suppressant and it friggen works well!
But squirting water into a stock diesel is useless!
Well, that is unless you convert it into a 6 stroke, then it will do something to add power on the steam stroke.
Did a quick search:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...THISWEEKSISSUE
If this is what you mean, its pretty cool stuff.
But why would it be a waste in a 4 stroke N/A diesel? Water is water, and when you subject water vapor to high temps and pressure like in the combustion stroke, it will expand, and draw in heat, giving the piston an exrta push while bringing down EGTs. Of course, the amount of water that can be injected will be less on a N/A as oppesed to a turbo.
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From: Joliet, Illinois
Originally Posted by David85
6 stoke engine????
Did a quick search:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...THISWEEKSISSUE
If this is what you mean, its pretty cool stuff.
But why would it be a waste in a 4 stroke N/A diesel? Water is water, and when you subject water vapor to high temps and pressure like in the combustion stroke, it will expand, and draw in heat, giving the piston an exrta push while bringing down EGTs. Of course, the amount of water that can be injected will be less on a N/A as oppesed to a turbo.
Did a quick search:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...THISWEEKSISSUE
If this is what you mean, its pretty cool stuff.
But why would it be a waste in a 4 stroke N/A diesel? Water is water, and when you subject water vapor to high temps and pressure like in the combustion stroke, it will expand, and draw in heat, giving the piston an exrta push while bringing down EGTs. Of course, the amount of water that can be injected will be less on a N/A as oppesed to a turbo.
Run a super high boos pressure and then you will have that excess.
But, you know what, go ahead and buy the water injection system, install it, and I'll respond to your next posting about why you are not gaining any HP with your newly installed water injection system.
I'll just take these postings and cut and paste them to that posting.
Then you will get it?
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Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
Wasn't trying to start an arguement archangel, I'm sorry if my opinion came across too strong. I just thought it was a neat idea.
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Elder User
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Archangel, I agree with you, that without a turbo, water/methanol injection is a waste of time but I belive perfect for the non intercooled, turboed IDI's!
And cut Dave85 some slack....not all of us [myself included] are mechanics or all that well informed, that's why we joined this forum!
And cut Dave85 some slack....not all of us [myself included] are mechanics or all that well informed, that's why we joined this forum!
Elder User
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: On a farm.
David85: I think you are incorrect when you said that the WWII fighters that used water injection were NA. Every one I looked up that had it was super/turbo charged and the water/alcohol injection was used to suppress detonation at full military power when they cranked the boost (they called in manifold pressure) up to maximum. The only non-supercharged fighters in WWII were right at the beginning of the war and they were very quickly outclassed at higher altitudes by those that were supercharged/turbocharged. Case in point the P-40 Warhawk, P-39 Airacobra, P-36 Hawk, A-36/P-51A Mustang I, F2A Buffalo, to name a few. None of these planes used forced induction and had their a--es handed to them above 15,000 feet by any plane with a blower.
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
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From: Campbell River, B.C.
The specific plane I was thinking of was the F4U, but apearently that one also used artificial aspiration.
OK guys, I stand corrected.
I was not expecting a big increase in horse power if water injection was used on a N/A diesel, too much water could kill off the burn alltogether. But the thought was (and I have no way to prove this) that for similar amounts of power, the thermal efficiency could be increaced by using using up some of the heat that would normally get drawn into the water jacket. But again, I have no way of proving to anyone if it would actually work.
OK guys, I stand corrected.
I was not expecting a big increase in horse power if water injection was used on a N/A diesel, too much water could kill off the burn alltogether. But the thought was (and I have no way to prove this) that for similar amounts of power, the thermal efficiency could be increaced by using using up some of the heat that would normally get drawn into the water jacket. But again, I have no way of proving to anyone if it would actually work.
Posting Guru
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From: Sonoita Hills, AZ
I think some people have a misunderstaning of water/methanol injection. Snow Performance indicates with its Stage 2 kit at about 70hp and 250 degree F EGT drop, on 99-03 7.3 with 50/50 mix of water/methanol. This would be on a slightly modified truck: 4" exaust, K&N, and a programmer. Hypertech on setting 3 is 100 HP +70 HP for water/meth= 170 HP. They don't really get specific on non-turbos. This kit runs $469, not bad for 70 Hp. And you can use your windshield washer fluid resevoir, and windshield fluid (-20F) or thier boost juice. It will use approx. 1 gal per tank(30 gals) of diesel. Their Stage 3 kit boosts to 100 HP. They recommend not using washer fluid with glycerol or too many detergents. This will be my next upgrade, HP and lower EGT's good combo.
http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...hp?type=diesel
http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...hp?type=diesel
Posting Guru
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From: Joliet, Illinois
Originally Posted by rugermack
I think some people have a misunderstaning of water/methanol injection. Snow Performance indicates with its Stage 2 kit at about 70hp and 250 degree F EGT drop, on 99-03 7.3 with 50/50 mix of water/methanol. This would be on a slightly modified truck: 4" exaust, K&N, and a programmer. Hypertech on setting 3 is 100 HP +70 HP for water/meth= 170 HP. They don't really get specific on non-turbos. This kit runs $469, not bad for 70 Hp. And you can use your windshield washer fluid resevoir, and windshield fluid (-20F) or thier boost juice. It will use approx. 1 gal per tank(30 gals) of diesel. Their Stage 3 kit boosts to 100 HP. They recommend not using washer fluid with glycerol or too many detergents. This will be my next upgrade, HP and lower EGT's good combo.http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...hp?type=diesel
http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...hp?type=dieselThey only mention turbo engines and high boost application as far as I could see at http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...hp?type=diesel, and I have yet to see someone advertising these systems for stock, non-turbo, diesel engines.