engine rebuild
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New User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 15
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From: metro Phoenix, AZ
engine rebuild
We had the 360 engine in a ’71 Ford F100 rebuilt and stroked to a 390. It has taken a year and three engine failures, and still is having problems. Currently, it has burned 1.75 quarts of motor oil in 130 miles. Oil is seeping out of three of the spark plugs. There appears to be trace amounts of motor oil collecting in the coolant overflow tank (this was a big problem during the first failure).
This is the problem in a nutshell, but there are a lot of details associated with each failure. We have almost $4000 (including a $350 towing bill) invested and an engine that still doesn’t work. Do you have any suggestions for us?
Additional Question: What is the likelihood that the carburetor caused the engine to fail all three times, when the truck was running great before the rebuild?
Thanks!
Patti
This is the problem in a nutshell, but there are a lot of details associated with each failure. We have almost $4000 (including a $350 towing bill) invested and an engine that still doesn’t work. Do you have any suggestions for us?
Additional Question: What is the likelihood that the carburetor caused the engine to fail all three times, when the truck was running great before the rebuild?
Thanks!
Patti
Last edited by TigerDan; Aug 16, 2007 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Removed extraneous source code
Tuned
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 466
Likes: 10
From: Albuquerque, NM
Couple of questions. What do you mean when you say that oil is seeping out of the spark plugs? If you are using 1.75 qrts of oil in 130 miles..either it is smoking out the tailpipe really bad, or it is leaking. You noticed oil in the coolant? That is not a good indication. It could possibly be a cracked block or bad head gasket at worse. Hopefully not. I would direct you to the engine forum on this website. I'd bet money that they can figure it out.
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New User
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: metro Phoenix, AZ
Thanks for the quick reply and the tip on the engine thread. As Jeff's Secretary (aka, his wife) I know little about engines, but learning quickly. However, Jeff knows even less about computers, so together we are trying to research this problem of ours.
He's unavailable now but I can tell you there is very little smoke coming out of the tailpipe...I observed that myself. There are definite leaks...oil in the radiator recovery tank, and the intake manifold is leaking.
I will repost on the engine forum....thanks again!
Patti
He's unavailable now but I can tell you there is very little smoke coming out of the tailpipe...I observed that myself. There are definite leaks...oil in the radiator recovery tank, and the intake manifold is leaking.
I will repost on the engine forum....thanks again!
Patti
Hotshot
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,170
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From: The hills of No. Calif.
Did you (or Jeff) do the rebuilds yourself, or have them done by a shop? If a shop did the work they should stand by it. If you did it yourself, what sort of machine work was done? Were the block and heads Mangafluxed to check for cracks and checked for warpage?
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,834
Likes: 260
From: Piney Woods of East Texas
You are having the same problems I had several years ago. What is happening is the valve guides are failing, because of the unleaded fuel. If you remove the springs you will see the bosses is breaking off. This is where the valve seals fit. So with all of the oil on top is just pores in the top of the valves. I weighed all of the options and decided it would be easier in the long run to replace the heads with a modern design that can handle a higher lift cam and UNLEADED FUEL. Look at Edelbrock 6006 AL Heads, complete with valves and springs. Jegs and Summit racing is the cheapest for these heads. When I bough mine they were ~$1200 for a pair. Then install the Holland Sharp Roller Rockers to finish the dress. Curred my problem. I have some pictures in my Gallery. You will also be required to change tube headers if you are running them. These heads have HUGE exhaust ports. I ended up calling Edelbrock tech support because I could not find any that fit. What they used was Hooker Pro Comp, $600. The factory headers should fit but you will have a bad miss match.
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New User
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: metro Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted by TigerDan
Did you (or Jeff) do the rebuilds yourself, or have them done by a shop? If a shop did the work they should stand by it. If you did it yourself, what sort of machine work was done? Were the block and heads Mangafluxed to check for cracks and checked for warpage?
A shop rebuilt and assembled it (we are unaware of specific details), Jeff installed it the first time and it failed. The shop put in cam bearings and main bearings, and said too much fuel washed down the cylinder walls. At their recommendation, they sent the carburetor out to be rebuilt and new vacuum advance on the distributor. It failed again. They pulled the motor the third time, said the cam bearings, main bearings, lifters and cam shaft were ruined. They installed the motor, put it on an analyzer, said the CO's and hydrocarbons were double what they should be, and sent the carburetor out to be rejetted. It was after this failure that we started looking for info and posted our original question.
We've gotten lots of feedback but are trying to determine whether to take the loss ourselves, or decide if the shop has some responsibility in this matter.
Thoughts?
!["Beemer Nut"'s Avatar](data:image/svg+xml;utf8,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' viewBox='0 0 50 50'><circle class='avatar-circle-default' fill='%23bc5285' cx='25px' cy='25px' r='20px'></circle><text class='avatar-text-default' x='49%' y='53%' fill='white' text-anchor='middle' alignment-baseline='middle'>"</text></svg>)
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,658
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From: "Islander"
Sounds like that shop has the answer for every motor failure but never their fault. To go back to them again is foolish as they will blame something else again but never their fault. Run like hell from these yahoos that sound like they haven't a clue about working on FE's.
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Fleet Owner
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 24,552
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From: Creedmoor, North Carolina
You have a problem, and I agree with B NUT run as fast as you can from these folks.
Where are you located, maybe a reader here is close by and can offer some help with finding someone that can help.
John
Where are you located, maybe a reader here is close by and can offer some help with finding someone that can help.
John
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Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: East Central Florida
Look you entered into a deal in good faith. You went back to allow the jerks to make good after they screwed up the 1st time. But they only make worse what they made bad. They keep charging you & blaming you for what they have created here. In my opinion, based on what you say; Where is the question about who's responsible for your current situation & problems? I mean you did your share or even more than your share, what did the shop do and did they do it for you, or to, you? 
Go to a more reputable & competent shop. Start over with a different engine, or get a factory remanufactured short block at least. Any idiot can build or rebuild an engine that fails consecutively time and again. What you claim the shop is telling you is not very credible in my opinion. Your lives will be a lot better IMHO.
You paid for a viable rebuild & wound up getting a good engine ruined, which these jerks charged you to do. . . What's wrong with this picture to you?
Hobbies are supposed to be fun & enjoyable, not more grief, expense, and trouble caused by others whom you placed faith & trust in, and have been taken & abused by. Anyway that's my $.02 on this sad tale.
FBp
Go to a more reputable & competent shop. Start over with a different engine, or get a factory remanufactured short block at least. Any idiot can build or rebuild an engine that fails consecutively time and again. What you claim the shop is telling you is not very credible in my opinion. Your lives will be a lot better IMHO.
You paid for a viable rebuild & wound up getting a good engine ruined, which these jerks charged you to do. . . What's wrong with this picture to you?
Hobbies are supposed to be fun & enjoyable, not more grief, expense, and trouble caused by others whom you placed faith & trust in, and have been taken & abused by. Anyway that's my $.02 on this sad tale.
FBp
Last edited by TigerDan; Aug 16, 2007 at 08:10 AM. Reason: Removed advice recommending litigation
Hotshot
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,170
Likes: 5
From: The hills of No. Calif.
It's not really our place here to recommend how you deal with the shop, that's up to you. FTE is a forum for mechanical advice, not legal issues.
But I agree, you need to find another shop as these guys don't seem to have a clue. With the amount of oil consumed it sounds as though the rings haven't seated, and oil in the coolant indicates a sealing problem which would have nothing to do with carburation.
My thought is that if the old engine ran fine with the carb, there's no reason why it should suddenly have such problems with the same carb after the engine was rebuilt. By stroking it you've increased the engine displacement and if anything, it should be running a tad leaner (though in most cases it's not enough of an increase to make much difference.)
On the other hand, though we have plenty of experience here in dealing with mechanical problems, it's still difficult to diagnose a problem exactly without actually laying hands on the vehicle. Also, at this point I'm sure we don't yet have all the pertinent info...
But I agree, you need to find another shop as these guys don't seem to have a clue. With the amount of oil consumed it sounds as though the rings haven't seated, and oil in the coolant indicates a sealing problem which would have nothing to do with carburation.
My thought is that if the old engine ran fine with the carb, there's no reason why it should suddenly have such problems with the same carb after the engine was rebuilt. By stroking it you've increased the engine displacement and if anything, it should be running a tad leaner (though in most cases it's not enough of an increase to make much difference.)
On the other hand, though we have plenty of experience here in dealing with mechanical problems, it's still difficult to diagnose a problem exactly without actually laying hands on the vehicle. Also, at this point I'm sure we don't yet have all the pertinent info...
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New User
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: metro Phoenix, AZ
Thanks for all the input! We do certainly respect the boundaries and are not looking for legal advice, just trying to educate ourselves on the mechanical side of things so we can deal with the shop effectively and decide what to do to with the engine itself.
While this truck is in mint condition, Jeff does use it for hunting trips and to replace the truck for that purpose with something new(er) will be a huge financial commitment that we weren't prepared for. Jeff's brother bought the truck from the original owner many years ago, and the whole family has been tinkering/fixing/rebuilding this baby for years, so there is a strong emtional investment in this, too.
Sigh...you guys have been great, and I'm learning a lot about engines!!
While this truck is in mint condition, Jeff does use it for hunting trips and to replace the truck for that purpose with something new(er) will be a huge financial commitment that we weren't prepared for. Jeff's brother bought the truck from the original owner many years ago, and the whole family has been tinkering/fixing/rebuilding this baby for years, so there is a strong emtional investment in this, too.
Sigh...you guys have been great, and I'm learning a lot about engines!!
Elder User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 920
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From: Westminster, Colorado
If you do elect to buy a new "rebuilt" engine...be sure to have your shop (that is installing it) go over all the specifications they can....I just ordered an new eninge only to find some clearances way out of spec. and undertorqued main bearing nuts....had we not checked and just put it in, it would have failed in no time.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,834
Likes: 260
From: Piney Woods of East Texas
You are have the same problems I did when I rebuilt my 360. And I knew I had a good machine shop. If you have the engine where you can remove the valve covers, I can direct you what you need to look for. I think you have valve guide boss broken at the head surface. I wish I had not lost all of my old engine pictures, I could actually show you. I head all of my valves and guides replaced so I could run UnLeaded fuel with out issues.
If you look closely around/through the valve springs you will see the valve guides. The valve guide seals attaches to a raised area on the heads. You can see some if you look real close. Mine was breaking these off. When doing so the valve guides were wear very quickly. With these broken off the engine was sucking oil that normally collected in this area. I found 2-3 broken on each head. My oil consumption was about 1 qt oil/tank of gas (120mi). You should be able to see the guide's boss stuck at the top under the keeper.
If I can locate a tech drawing I will post it.
If you look closely around/through the valve springs you will see the valve guides. The valve guide seals attaches to a raised area on the heads. You can see some if you look real close. Mine was breaking these off. When doing so the valve guides were wear very quickly. With these broken off the engine was sucking oil that normally collected in this area. I found 2-3 broken on each head. My oil consumption was about 1 qt oil/tank of gas (120mi). You should be able to see the guide's boss stuck at the top under the keeper.
If I can locate a tech drawing I will post it.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,834
Likes: 260
From: Piney Woods of East Texas
These are Edelbrock AL 6006 FE heads. And yes these do make an engine breath. I have the matching AL Intake, with Holand Sharp Roller rockers. Pictures in my Gallery. The only Bad thing is that ONLY Hooker Big Bore 428 headers fit them properly, another $600. Notice the extra exhaust bolts.