Give it up! He doesn't stop and you will not win.

 

Jeremy you MUST have been offline all week.... Cause i knew you would have posted.... And i got a box today.. thanks.

 

Yeah, I've been offline most of the week. I probably would have paid attention to that thread if I had seen it. I just read it....that's all I'll say.

You're welcome for the box. Did you notice the name of the "business" on the address under your name? I made that up special for you.

 

I think a BB turbo has better everything (wheel, bearing, shaft, housing, etc...) than a stock turbo, and is probably far less susceptible to whatever damage that might be attributable to my vortex theory, and more than likely with that special housing and bleed ring at the mouth of the inlet, a vortex probably doesn't form anyway, no matter what kind of filter you use. But I assumed live2hunt was asking about potential damage with a stock turbo, since I didn't see a turbo upgrade in his signature.

Ok, I can see the thin plastic air box helping to muffle the sound by reflecting it, but I noticed these new noises as soon as I hooked up and towed the first hills going around Atlanta to the north, and they were so loud and alarming, that I would've pulled over to look under the hood if it hadn't been for the traffic. I soon figured out that the noises would only occur for certain load conditions, but I remember you read all about them in my TAG thread, and gave a lot of inputs about surge, etc... When I got to my overnight stop, I called Doug Lewis, who's a very nice guy to do business with, but in retrospect, I'm convinced his assurances to just ignore the noises and drive on was bad advice, and I should've done more research before following it! BTW, he continues to give this advice in his tech column in the PSR magazine, and if there was any contact info for those getting it, I'd call them and tell my story!

The way I picture a vortex forming, is it originates at the mouth of the turbo inlet due to the natural spin imparted to the incoming air by the compressor wheel, and then the vortex moves out toward the filter element, and a conical or cylindrical element assists the vortex by supplying inlet air in a symmetrical fashion around the entire perimeter of the inlet tube. I think the fact that the inlet tube to the turbo is already a "tornado shape" encourages a vortex to form more readily than a cylindrical shaped tube would.

BTW, here's an update on my "water down the drain" analogy for a vortex that I talked to death in my TAG thread. It turns out that water doesn't NECESSARILY go down the drain counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere. I always thought that the Coriolis force determines the sense of the rotational flow of water down the drain in sinks, bathtubs, and toilet bowls. But I've done some further research on the matter, and it turns out that the Coriolis force is far too weak to affect such small bodies of water, and It all depends upon how the water is introduced and the geometric structure of the drain. One can find both counterclockwise and clockwise flowing drains in both hemispheres.

 

It appears you have put a lot of thought into this, but there a few flaws in your hypothesis. One is that the laws and theories of fluid dynamics don't work the same way with air as they do water. They still apply it just that other factors come into play such as air is less dense and much harder to impart enough energy into to create a vortex. Now if a vortex were able to form then yes it would be damaging. This is where some design features in our trucks come into play. Many would think that the fact that the intake tapers down (tornado shaped) would assist in the formation of a vortex. Actually the opposite is true. I’m not sure about the 99’s, but mine has what they call bellows in the intake pipe. Many would think these are only there to make the pipe more flexible. Again they would be wrong. Bellows and curves in the intake of turbo charged engines are there to prevent the formation of a vortex that and to just smooth out the air. Then you have the design of the compressor wheel itself. The design (size and shape of the exducer and inducer), and type of (centrifugal) makes the formation of a vortex or other perturbations that much more unlikely. All this above does not mean however that a free flowing filter is always a good idea. In our trucks we also have turbo surge/stall where there is a pressure imbalance between the turbine and compressor sides. Having a free flowing filter makes a surge/stall that much easier achieve. A surge is essentially when the compressor pumps out more air that the engine can swallow. This in turn causes a back up of air in the intake and creates reverse flowing pressure waves this damages turbo and wears out the bearing. These conditions are much more prevalent in modified vehicles, but unmodified vehicles also can experience them while towing and or on step inclines.

 

Yep -- that's exactly right. I won an argument about this some time ago. You need a very large, flat, calm pool of water and a hole perfectly level with the top or a turntable to see the Coriolis Effect. Funny thing is that I "knew" this a long time ago because I used to take my foot and make the water go either way down my shower drain. Once started in a direction, it would stay going that way unless interrupted again. I found what I think is a very cool demonstration of it here (it's a video):
http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/fw/gifs/coriolis.mpg

I'm still not convinced though. Maybe you can setup a demonstration with a clear intake tube and inject something (harmless, like dry-ice smoke or something) to see if it shows up. THAT I'd be interested in....

Joe

 

now that would be cool to see...clear air intake and IC pipes..

 

Yep -- but thinking about it further, a duplicate shape of the stock intake would be the most accurate way to see what's really going on inside it, as brought up by batgeek above. A smooth tube could skew the results.

 

All this talk got me curious about something I really didn't understand before. It has nothing to do with our trucks, but does with the 6.0L. Thanks to the below pic, I now know exactly what a variable vane turbo is. I thought I'd post it here in case others were as curious about it as I was.


Joe

 

Izzy that picture really illustrates how much better a VV turbo is over a WG model. They spool up so much quicker.

 

I was a bit confused because of the videos and all that going around about how the 6.0L whistle comes from the exhaust because of the VV turbo. I was connecting that with the exhaust note thinking the VV had something to do with the exhaust. I'm still not clear on why its whistle comes from the exhaust and ours comes from the intake, but at least I'm clear now on how the VV actually works! I assume the whistle difference is just because of the design...

Joe

 

Uhhh, you should hear my 5" Cannon exhaust whistle.

 

lol.... I've listened to your clips -- they sound good!! I need to make a couple clips as well, but in reality, mine will sound pretty much like guzzle's. 4" MBRP with WW. I'm quite happy with it, sound-wise, performance-wise, looks, etc. I'm getting to the point now where mods will start getting expensive (big oil, injectors, turbo, maybe 'pane.......) so I'll be at about the level I'm at now for a while.

I know, I know.....OT. Sorry.

 

The ONLY reason I posted the update on my "water down the drain" analogy for a vortex, which as I said has already been talked to death in my TAG thread, is so no one will lose a bar bet to someone like Izzy!

Compare the curvature of the turbine blades in your 6.0L pic with the ones of my rebuilt turbo that I took a pic of when it was pulled to change the compressor wheel at 300 miles. Click for full size image Our turbine blades are fairly flat pitch compared to the very curved ones for the VV turbo. I think the 6.0L whistle from the turbine side is from the exhaust gas whistling past these sharp curves, kind of like when my blown turbo started whistling like a police siren when a few turbine blades got chipped.

This pic is with the new early 99 wheel installed Click for full size image , which is the same wheel everyone calls the WW, and you can see why it causes a whistle on our intake side. See if you can find a pic of a 6.0L compressor wheel to compare with a WW.

 

Please use the quote back feature, to quote this hypothesis of mine that you claim is flawed! In fact, I don't recall even using the word "hypothesis" in any of my posts here, but I might've because it's a word I do use occasionally.

I'm all to familiar with the fact that a vortex CAN be created in air, it's called a tornado, and you're quite correct, once formed it's VERY damaging!

Now this is what I'd consider to be a flawed hypothesis. I'm beginning to think that maybe the only "Ford design feature" is to buy from the cheapest vendor and stuff all the parts into a body and see if it works, with the customer being the guinea pig!

Again another hypothesis, put this one probably has more merit than Ford actually having design features. However, I think the rubber boot or bellows as you call it, is just a convenient way of connecting the filter box to the CCV coupler, and the CCV coupler to the turbo inlet, and the ridges are in it for stiffing so that it doesn't collapse under the vacuum that occurs when pulling high boost, especially with a factory paper filter element full of dirt!

It's pretty clear this is a flawed hypothesis, because it's common knowledge that the newer 99.5 wheel is much more prone to the perturbations that cause surge than is the older early 99 wheel. Or maybe this is just one of the special Ford design features?

If you would change "...not... always a good idea" to "might be a bad idea, especially if you tow a lot", I'd be 100% in agreement with this hypothesis!

Finally, I'm in 100% agreement with this, period!