First thanks for any suggestions you can offer. Listed below is my email to "TorqueKing" and his reply. John (TorqueKing) suggested I post this to list to get different opinions from the collective knowledge of the FTE.

Thank you again,

Tom Call
Portland, OR

Original email to TorqueKing:

John,

I've just found the Ford Truck Enthusiasts site and am really enjoying the info on it. I've read with interest your broad range of knowledge on engines and torque, which brings me to my situation.

Two weeks ago I brought a vehicle I've wanted for 8 years, a 1999 Laforza (www.Laforza.com). These are SUV's with an Iveco delivery van chassis with a custom body bolted to it. The cars were used as NATO and police vehicles with various types of engines to included Alfa and Fiat (the chassis and body are produced in Italy and shipped to San Diego where the car is painted and the interior and drivetrain are installed.

They were designed to be dropped (with a parachute) out of planes, which gives you an idea of the strength of the chassis. The motor is a Ford 5.0 302(speed/density) and I told it is a truck application as the air intake is on the drivers side. It has an AOD transmission, Iveco suspension and brakes and the transfer case is "New Process" (I believe the same as Jeep). The car weights in at 5,200 pounds.

The car had a miss when I bought it in San Diego and I did not give it much thought. I drove nonstop to Portland, OR (1,030 miles) and averaged 10 miles per gallon. I had my mechanic check the car out and #8 cyl. had 35 psi and the end of the sparkplug was missing. He has quoted me $3,000 to repair the problem for labor and parts. He also mentioned that if I wanted to buy a new motor the labor would only be $1,000 to install it as they have a lot less to do than on a rebuild. As I have to rebuild/replace the motor I'd like to increase low-end torque as the 185hp with a listed torque of 270 @ 2400 rpm seems a bit too low for the weight of the car.

At this point is where I get really confused. Each person I speak seems to have a different way accomplish what my goals are and some indicate what others have suggested will not work for my application (low end torque vs high end torque). In driving a couple of other SUV's and comparing, 'by the seat of my pants', their horsepower/torque/weight/performance it seems to me that the Laforza would work well with horsepower in the 285-350 range and torque in the about the same range.

I want to make an informed and appropriate choice with the following points in order of importance 1) increased horsepower/torque 2) have good derivability (no rough idling)
3) reliable 4) value for expenditures 3) cost (in the 6-9,000 dollar range if I can get what I want, less if I have to settle for).

Here are the three scenarios I've had suggested to date:

1) Estimated 350hp-Build a new 347 stroker ($5,000), with air mass, a custom chip, headers, ignition ($1,600) and labor ($2,000) Total $8,600 . I realize there is not much detail here and I'll need to get specifics before I commit.

2) Estimated 275-300hp-Rebuild existing motor with the following: Headers $350.00, Mass Air Conversion $750, Mass Air meter $250, 30lb/hr fuel injectors $350, MSD ignition complete $425, Comp cam $260, AFR Aluminum cyl heads $1450, Comp cams roller rocker arms $265, T&S pushrods $125, Transgo shift kit $100, Head studs $125, Twin 65mm T-body $295,Edelbrock intake manifold ($no price given) Misc. (plugs, filters, oil, antifreeze, etc.)$500,Machine shop chargers (include pistons, rings, bearings, timing chain, gears, gaskets, oil Pump, main studs, rod bolts and all machining operations including engine balancing) $2250,Labor $1750
Total $8,470

Or add the following (with different cyl heads and manifolds)
Estimated horsepower 400-430hp – Kenne Belle Whipple $3,650, Vibration damper $440,
Adj. F/P regulator $179, Water pump $175, Boost-a-pump $225, Extra machine shop charges
$500, Extra labor $500.
Total $5669

3) Estimated 225hp- This is from a Ford dealer parts department that was recommended to me.
New motor from Ford racing rated at 225hp (I believe he said for a '93 Mustang) $ 2,700, Ford mass air unit $695, Ford roller rockers (to change from a 1.6 to 1.7 rollers to broaden the power range, change the lift from .444 to .474) $199, Superchips.com unit (no price given), headers $300, labor (locally) $1300
Total $5194
Estimated 325hp - Add a supercharger Vortech or Kenne Belle at $3,000, labor $500
Total $8,694


John I know you are very generous with your time and expertise and you have good judgement on value (hp/torque) for expenditures made. Would you mind giving me your thoughts? The current engine has 14,000 miles on it and been well cared for. I do not know what is causing the low pressure in #8 cyl. but I'm told it could be rings, cracked piston or scored cyl walls (due to the missing bottom of the spark plug).

I'm not concerned with top speed, all I really need is about 85 mph and a little left for passing. I realize that after a particular point I may end up spending a lot of additional money for very little return and it might be prudent for me to stop short of my goal of 285-350 hp but I don't have any idea where that point might be.

In order to insure marital bless, I'd like to make sure I don't a mistake in my choice of which way to go and end up spending a lot of additional funds to make it work right and have share this with my wife.

I apologize for the length of this email, but I wanted to cover it fully. Let me know if you have any question. BTW I have rebuilt an engine before (about 30 years ago) so I do have a minimal skill level with a wrench. The car is not needed for daily transportation if that factor comes into the equation.

Thank again if you can help and I understand if you don't have the time.

Tom Call
Portland, OR
503 632-8282 bus.
503 632-8284 res.

John's reply:

Tom, I would seriously think twice before using a 347
>stroker, it has a terrible stroke/rod ratio, and these
>engines are usually very short lived on the street, more
>suited to race conditions, and not very often. The 351 is
>not too much wider, so unless your master cylinder is packed
>in there, it will surely fit. It seems to me like that
>vehicle is very much a truck, so it should have engine
>compartment space accordingly. Any truck I know of can
>handle a big block engine, so the relatively small 351
>Windsor engine should fall right in there. You can get a
>rebuilt 351 short block for very cheap, a top quality one
>should not cost more than $2500, and that's with a 2 year
>warranty. Once you have the short block, go with Roush 200
>heads ($800), ARP head studs, Fel-Pro 1011-2 gasket ($69,
>$64) and an intake of your choice. I am partial to the
>Trick Flow unit, as you pointed out, the longer runners
>favor low RPM torque, and the Trick Flow piece has the
>longest runners on the market. You may have to find a lower
>intake from the Ford Dealership, the stock pieces aren't
>very restrictive, your 302 lower intake won't fit, it's too
>narrow. As for a cam, any 302 non-roller cam will
>interchange with a 351 Windsor cam, by changing the firing
>order on the distributor (takes 5 minutes, no bolts!). Now
>I'm wondering, I don't know if Ford ever made a roller 351.
>If they did, then I would say that that would be the supreme
>choice for a truck engine. The roller lifter setup is worth
>40 HP and 30 ft*lbs over stock, and it only gets better with
>RPM. otherwise, I still think a flat tappet 351 is going to
>outpull a roller 302. If you could get the XE258HR cam in a
>351 with Roush 200 heads, a Trick Flow induction, and full
>length headers and an MSD ignition, I can almost promise you
>400 HP, good fuel milage, even with the speed-density FI.
>You would be better off with mass air, but the last time I
>ran a similar combo on Dyno 2000, it scored over 450ft*lbs,
>and 408 HP. Not too bad for an engine breathing with its
>own lungs. I think your price estimates are pretty high,
>you could build this motor for no more than $6000. I built
>my 302 from top to bottom for less than $3000, and I have
>378 ft*lbs, and 330 HP. Gotta go, but I just don't want to
>see you invest 8 grand in a motor that really has no
>business on the street. If the guy at the engine shop tells
>you otherwise, ask him how many 347 there are on the street
>with over 100,000 miles, I'll give you a preview: not many.
> I've seen these things come apart, develop horrible rod
>knock, and lose compression, usually between 20,000-40,000
>miles. The 351 has an even larger stroke, but it has a
>taller deck, so the rod is longer for less rotational
>harmonics (better stroke/rod ratio), and larger crank mains,
>for reduced friction and more stability of the crank. The
>302's crank is not suited to more that a 3.25" stroker,
>which is the streetable version of the 347 at 331 cubic
>inches, approximately the same size as the 5.4 Triton V8.
>Don't listen to just me, either, get lots of opinions all
>over. Try sending Steve Sauer (SauerF100s) on FTE a copy of
>your dilemma. I'm absolutely sure he'll think you're better
>off with a 351. Even better, just post it in the forum,
>that way everybody can get into it. Besides, everybody will
>be happy to hear me recommending the biggest of the
>Windsors, I get teased for being too much of a 302 man
>sometimes. Keep in touch,
>
>John

 

Hey Tom-

Welcome to FTE!

Well, I think Torqueking gave you an excellent answer, and I, too, would consider going with a quality-built 351W. Use high quality/ high strength bolts, bearings, gaskets, etc, and you'll have a very long lasting, well performing motor. Good Luck!

Jayson

 

Sounds like an interesting ride you have there.A mildly built EFI351 is a good choice, but you also could get a really nice 302 through F.R.P.P. They offer a 5.0L GT-40 crate engine with 340bhp! The part # is M-6007-XE3.Suggested retail price for it is $3,195. I'd also consider coverting your 302 to Mass Air vs. Speed Density.They offer a conversion kit(part # M-9000-T51) for a suggested retail price of $750.I'm not sure it would work for your specific application,but you could call their Tech "Hot Line" to find out.I remember seeing an article on the type of SUV you have back in '89.You might check the Web to see if any clubs exist for these SUVs.Good luck with it.

 

Thanks for the reply! You mentioned a "quality 351-W". Could you offer any guidelines on how I would would distinguish a good one from a not-so-good? Thanks.

Tom Call

 

Thank you for your observations. I was told that the GT-40 crate engine has most of the power in the higher RPM ranges and I'm more interested in low end power. I do not know if this observation is correct, can you shed any light on it?

Tom Call

 

I just checked with Ford Racing Performance Parts and they said the GT-40 crate engine might not be the way to go, as power in not concentrated for low-end troque. The person I spoke with indicated I should explore pushing a stock 5.0L engine back in and superchargew it with either a Vortech or Kenne Belle supercharger. He would lean toward the Kenne Belle if my only concern was low end torque, but said they are a bit more expensive than the Vortech.

Tom Call

 

well im running a completely stock 351 engine in my 94 lightning. which basically came with gt40 intake, heads and high torque cam and speed density. i added a intercooled vortech supercharger at 15#s boost. electric fans, and larger t-body. i run 42# injectors with a custom tuned chip. at the rear wheels im making close to 430 hp at around 5000rpm and 530ftlbs torque at around 3000rpm. is that enough torque for ya? keep in mind this engine has all the stock ford componentry. the cam has never been out and the heads have never been touched. and its still speed density. save your money and stay speed density. any good tuner can get a somewhat radical combo to run fine on it.

 

i also agree with torque king on the 327 theory. ditch that idea. but i dont agree with the statements about the tfs intake. i personally would go with a gt40 or cobra upper and lower intake. both make much more low end torque. the tfs unit only becomes favorable over the gt40 when youre gonna rev past 5500rpm. thats when the tfs really shines. but for torque the ford intakes cant be beat. and i would suggest a custom cam over an off the shelf unit. they are the same price and you can just tell the cam maker what you want as far as power and rpm limits. and he'll grind you a cam that will work fine with speed density. i know guys making over 600ftlbs on speed density cams. torque is all about air velocity. i think a blower is the cheapest most effective way to get the results you want. you can build a relatively mild breathing and cammed 351 on a good budget. then add some boost and itll really wake up. i know from experience.

 

Appreciate your help. A question on your comments as I'm new to some of these terms. What dose tfs stand for? Trick Flow _____? I'll be making a decision within the next two weeks and I'll let you know what I did and what the dyno results are.

Tom Call

 

tfs stands for trick flow specialties. and thats not the intake you want if youre looking for torque.

 

...And that's excactly why I wanted him to bring the situation to the massage board, because I am not as proficient in EFI situtations. I DO know that the TFS is better low end than the Comp Polymers intake. Of course, the test I saw didn't show anything below 4000 RPM, which Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords think is "low RPM"! Nothing about the Stock manifolds, though. Anyway, I have heard many opinions which prove that speed density isn't all that bad, and if you heard how strong Lightning2fast's 351 is, I don't see any reason to want to convert.

'77 F100, 302 (the aftermarket Prodigy), C4
Cadet Second Lieutenant John F. Daly III
South Carolina Corps of Cadets, The Citadel
The TorqueKing

 

youre right torque king. the comp polymers intake is for high rpm horsepower applications due to its very short runner length. the longer the runner the more air velocity. and air velicity is torque. and boy dont get me started on mass air vs speed density. ive beaten that dead horse too many times in these forums. i just hate to see someone go spend 800$ on a system thats just gonna have to be furthur modified anyway. just get a chip and be done with it.

 

This forum is great! In just a couple of days I've got more knowledgeable info than visiting several shops that seem to think a engine for a Mustang application will work with any 302 replacement and top speed is the ultimate goal of most. I'm now getting closer to a list of components to use. Rebuild to start in two weeks or so. Thanks.

Tom Call