Gapless Rings?
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Gapless Rings?
They won't raise your static compression ratio, but they will increase your cylinder pressure, which is what you want, because that's the pressure that acts on the piston top. I've never used, but I've heard some rumors that it's easy horsepower, and they are very durable, but again I stress that I read this in Car Craft, which is usually a reliable source as it relates to durability, but it's still a magazine.
Cadet Second Lieutenant John F. Daly III
South Carolina Corps of Cadets, The Citadel
The TorqueKing
Cadet Second Lieutenant John F. Daly III
South Carolina Corps of Cadets, The Citadel
The TorqueKing
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Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Ft. Walton Bch 32547
Gapless Rings?
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-Jun-02 AT 08:15 PM (EST)]I use them on every one of my rebuilds. I highly suggest for anybody use to them. I did a leakdown test shortly after break in. Would you believe only 1 to 2 percent leakdown? Normal rings have between 5 and 10 percent, and that's only when new. My oil stays very clean, and even with a fairly radical cam, I still have good vacuum. That is a side benefit from the gapless rings. Very cheap horsepower, and your engine stays tight much longer.
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,712
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From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Gapless Rings?
How's that for real world results? Thanks Steve, you have once again educated both of us, I just decided I'm going to use them on my Iron Eagle engine, which I hope not to have to build for at least 4 more years, hopefully 10. Ask me sometime about it, it's a 500 ft.lb, 500 HP naturally aspirated small block, with Iron heads and a dual plane intake. I really got my head in the clouds with this one, it's all a dream right now though, and Dart hasn't even begun to manufacture the block I need either. Thanks again Steve.
The TorqueKing
The TorqueKing
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,620
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From: Albuquerque
Gapless Rings?
Well they say you don't get something for nothing and they're right! Anyway I've used them on two engines. The drawback is do not expect to get more than a quart of oil to 1,000 miles due to the low tension oil rings. I'm kicking myself now for not tossing the oil ring and using a standard one. On the plus side they do raise compression since they limit blow by and leak down. Would you belive "0" yes I said zero leak down on all cylinders! You will need to use exactly the right hone proceedures on the cylinder walls.
Bear Tracks
Bear Tracks
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Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Ft. Walton Bch 32547
Gapless Rings?
Beartracks, you aren't losing oil because of the Total Seal oil rings. Did you follow the proper procedure of restricting your engine vacuum to your PCV valve? Did you use the proper positive type teflon valve stem seals as recommended? I would bet the answers are no to both questions. I followed the advise given by Total Seal to the letter. Special precautions are needed because of the increased vacuum. My engines use no oil whatsoever, except for less then half a quart at break-in, and even this isn't typical. I have used these rings in at least a couple dozen engines, and none of them use oil. Also, zero leakdown sounds great, but is tough to believe. My machine work was done by a guy who knows his stuff, and charges accordingly. I can assure you my cylinders were honed correctly. My machinist is who suggested I use this type of rings in the first place. He builds race winning drag, circle track, and marine engines, and is highly respected. Did you buy the older Zero Gap Top Ring set, or the newer set in which both first and second ring are gapless? You have to be losing your oil elsewhere, and not going by your oil rings. I would put money on this.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Albuquerque
Gapless Rings?
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 07-Jun-02 AT 02:23 PM (EST)] Well I do have the older style set. However this problem is not unusual. By the way my builder has built engines for the Unser family for years. They are from here. I did the leak down test myself with new gauges and verified the readings by turning engine slightly and watching air flow begin as valves start to open. I also used the crankcase vacuum trick on both engines (400). I'm running the good PC seals, stainless valves and new guides all around. The engine was maticulously (is that a word?) assembled in a clean room. I have found other threads on the web reserching this problem. Maybe they corrected it. There was a Miata club that ordered a dozen sets on a volume buy and each one of the owners complained of smoke and oil burning. My static compression is between 166 and 170 pounds. Anyway it may not happen to you but it happened to me, twice.
Bear Tracks
PS. With 4,000 miles on the engine it could still improve.
PSS. I don't mean to offend or brag but I probably have $7,000 in the bullet.
Bear Tracks
PS. With 4,000 miles on the engine it could still improve.
PSS. I don't mean to offend or brag but I probably have $7,000 in the bullet.
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Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
Likes: 37
Gapless Rings?
beartracks-
The total seal rings are available with two types of oil rings, standard and low tension. Standard tension is recommended by their tech dept for street applications. The low tension rings you say you have are NOT recommended for the street. Their tech dept recommends the low tension oil rings only for racing applications where oil consumption is not a problem.
I think you have identified your own problem: "low tension oil rings".
I will be using the standard tension Total Seal rings on my 400 rebuild.
The total seal rings are available with two types of oil rings, standard and low tension. Standard tension is recommended by their tech dept for street applications. The low tension rings you say you have are NOT recommended for the street. Their tech dept recommends the low tension oil rings only for racing applications where oil consumption is not a problem.
I think you have identified your own problem: "low tension oil rings".
I will be using the standard tension Total Seal rings on my 400 rebuild.
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
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Gapless Rings?
I talked to them about a year ago. At that time they had standard tension in the street sets but you can order them with low tension, just different letters in the part number. The race sets are fully customized and have real low tension rings available. I asked about getting low tension rings with a street set but the tech rep said he did not recommend those on a street motor PERIOD! He was very adamant about it. I suppose I could have insisted, but not with his recommendations.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2002
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Gapless Rings?
Believe it or not, a little blowby actually helps oil control. You can run into problems on a street motor with torque plate honed cylinders ( aids in ring seal/ hurts oil control ). You can go with a lot less ring tension than any company's low tension oil rings with the proper cylinder finish and by running crankcase vacuum ( race only of course ). A high volume oil pump can also cause oil usage by pumping more than the oil rings can handle.
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