hey guys, my dads got a 1989 7.3L with the ATS turbo, he takes care of it and everything, diesels are in our blood but nobody around me wants to adjust the injection pump timing, ive tried to get it as close as possible witht he ear but the truck is still a dog. we have had pump problems like you wouldnt believe, this is the 4th one the guy doing them is pretty respectable he hooks me up. but if you go throught the gears and if you shift too soon it will buck not fast but slow and wihtt the rpm itll almost chug alone and the timing has to be way off. do you know where i can get the proper equipment to do the timing myself?
thanks in advance guys!

 

Dieselman3500,
Welcome to FTE and the IDI diesel forum.

First a question, how was the IP removed?

Did the IP drive gear get removed with the IP?
Or was the IP removed from the drive gear with the cover left in place?

 

thanks!!

yeah the cover was left on the truck when it was removed so i didnt skip any teeth on the gear i think. but can you still skip a tooth even if the cover is left on? the truck starts good now, i replaced all the fuel lines and that whole deal glow plugs are manual switch. but the truck has no power i dont think and my father who drives it everyday says the same.
any thoughts?
the guy gave us so many pumps i dont know if he gave us one setup for the turbo so i dont know if its gettin enough fuel i have a boost guage and EGT on order so i can og by that and turn it up.
but for now i want to time the engine correctly.

 

You can skip a tooth, but lets assume it is still where it is supposed to be for now.

Are all of the IP's used?

Do you ever see any smoke?
What color?

Do you get any black smoke pulling a hill with your foot on the floor?

Are the static timing marks lined up on top of the IP neck?

How old are the injectors mileage wise?

If you can stand all the questions, we will have answers for you.

The equipment to time a diesel is a bit expensive, a lot of shops have no idea how to time it right.
Lets go through a few things first to see where the problem or problems may be.

There is a thread "how to super tune your diesel engine using glow plugs" that has a different and probably better approach to setting the timing than investng in a timing light setup. ( I probably did not type that right, but that is the jist of the title)
The cost is lots better as well, but it will take a little time to do.

All you need is some time and a little wire and a digital volt meter that has a millivolt scale.

 

ok lets see
1. the pump marks dont line up bc the pump is not the original so i dont know where to even put them i have a couple of marks of my own from all the previous pumps so its prettty hectic up there if oyu know what i mean, do you know anything i dont know bout marks?
2. the injectors are original 170,000 miles give or take some, i had them very very quickly cleaned by diesel pump guy, he just hit them hard with injector cleaner so they actually may be weak by now he didnt say anything to me except that they looked fine but who knows right bc i did get 3 bad pumps from him.
3. some smoke issues maybe but i cleaned that up hopefully after new fuel line clean up, but as of now maybe a hint of blue on highway i think havent payed much attention lately but none at idle really. its been pretty good lately just put in new dent valve, alot of blow by in my opinion but i compressioned checked engine bout 3 months ago and they were all in within specs, but turbo looks good but i want a boost/EGT to see whats really going on.
when pump went south first time it would rev by itself up and down 2000 rpms and smoke thick white.
4. the pumps i honestly couldnt tell ya what the guy gave me unfortuanately. the first time i got my pump back rebuilt like i usually do for my trucks, but the idle was high and it was messed up. second one was mine again, third one was one he had on bench and fourth one was another one he had on bench so at this point i dont know if its tuned for a turbo or not. i dont really see smoke because the exhaust is a short pipe under truck right after muffler so its hard but it never ever really smokes black making me think its starving for fuel maybe??

is there any write ups as to how to do the timing you were talking about with the volt meter and wire????

been drivin truck for a bout 6 months now but lately ive been fixin up the truck to get it going right, bunch of new parts and what not being nice to father so lol but im def listening i do all my work on my trucks so im pretty well inclined in that sense,

i apologize for the long reply just trying to fill you in on whats going on try to figure this out
THANKS!

 

Dieselman3500................the thread to read is "Using glow plugs to super tune the engine"............

The very first thing you need to do to restore the engine to it's best power and economy is to install a New set of injectors....................NOT CLEANED OR REBUILT, BUT NEW injectors.........you have 170K miles on them (my opinion, they were designed to only last about 45K-90K)........at the same time "plug the fuel return line between the fuel filter and the injector return lines".........

I recommend to install a new set of glow plugs, but you can check them after you install the new injectors the way I described in the thread.....................(installing new ones will save you a lot of testing and time)

Then install a new fuel filter and check the fuel pressure at the fuel filter (min 6 PSI and bleed it until absolutely no air)

Then you can use the glow plug readings to set the timing as described in the thread...............

crossbones

 

ok, the glowplugs are new and they are the cheap brand their the motorcraft ones.

i did check the fuel pressure bout a week ago and it said 4psi across the board. the lift pump is about 5 years ago. is it a piston pump or a diaphram pump could i of tore it wile running the veggie oil? we had some incidents when the veggie got thick can that strain the lift pump but the filter isnt too old.
????

 

You are using VO..............You definitely need new injectors and now you Need to Install a electric push pump at the VO tank that will pump 15 PSI to the mechanical pump and Now you Need to Install a turbo pressure gauge between the fuel filter and the IP and make sure under all driving conditions that the pressure says above 6 PSI on the gauge and then Install a temperature gauge between the VO fuel filter and the IP and the temperature of the VO Needs to be a Minimum of 150°F at the IP.........................DO NOT USE THE SAME FUEL FILTER FOR VO AND DIESEL..........................you will never get the timing correct until you do these things............................I need to know if you are running VO 100% of the time or are you using diesel to flush or sometimes running a tank of diesel..................
crossbones

 

Crossbones- what the hell do you do for a living- I appeciate that you have a lot of knowledge to pass along, but my God it seams hard to get out of you. I'm an aircraft mechanic with 30 years of keeping stuff going with a rock and a track spike, I've learned a few things in that time, I am well versed in everthing from a 1926 Pratt and Whittney R-985- R2800 radial engines to PW120 turbo prop's, NOW if I can get my IDI to perform like a Powerstroke, I'd be laughing! HA HA.

 

crossbones,, no dad was feeling good one day and ran VO for the summer straight in one tank and diesel in other waited till truck warmed up then switched over and cleaned out on shut down, well sometimes sometimes he forgot. as for the temp i figured that since the oil is being pressurized it would meet the 150 deg temp, bc i know VO needs to be at a magical 178* before being injected so it atomizes correctly and doesnt leave deposits on your injectors which i think happened. i think im going to pull the injectors and put in new ones. my fuel pressure is 4 psi i think i check again tom tho. at this point "no more" VO until we recive our processor to make biodiesel. the VO was a pain to experiment with but im getting there. ill try your glow plug test as well tom if it doesnt rain and ill report back witht the readings ASAP. filter is good glow plugs are new. were on our way LOL.
thanks again for the help.!! the ford is nothin like my cummins im pretty good witht that thing but im tryin to expand my knowledge.
ill get back to you

 

Kevin.......I am now retired.........I am 56 years old and I opened my first auto parts store at the age of 21, from there I have owned machine shops, automotive repair centers and muffler centers........I have flow bench,cam shaft profile grinding, dyno and engine blue printing experience......I have spent several hundred hours reading (studying) very old lab reports from Langley(1900-1945's) and other labs as well as patents during this period on alternative ways of fueling a automotive engine......up to and including successfully using hydrogen............

Life has left me with "poor" communication skills............I do the best that I can now..........

Kevin, with out this sounding bad, what "information" am I leaving out, or not addressing properly........given that I even know the answer...............

crossbones

 

Crossbones---I think your communication skills are fine and I don't think anyone is questioning your knowledge, it's just your chocked full of so much information you tend to blow us away.
Now to back up a bit, why plug the return coming off the filter and why 15 psi electric pump if we're looking for 6 psi at the ip ? Are you thinking there is that much of a pressure drop ? As far as the electric pump boosting the mech. lift pump, I always thought that to be a bad idea being that if the mech. pump diaphram ruptures you'll be pumping fuel into the crankase.

Dennis

 

Good info CB, like 77F250 said, it seems you have a lot of info on whatever pops up, and I (we) appreciate your input- I'm pushing 50 also, would like to retire to working on old trucks,- like my '48 one ton. Like the great Canadian RED GREEN says, were all in it togeather. LOL

 

Dennis............You have brought up a Excellent Point about the mechanical pump diaphragm that I have over looked............when I set up a dual tank system for VO........because of the complexity of keeping the mechanical pump in play with a dual fuel supply including separate filters (no way to turn it off) I simply remove the mechanical pump to begin with and install a electric pump at both tanks..........(since it now removed, it is"out of sight and out of mind" and I have never really considered problems with leaving it in play...............

The reason I plug the return line between the filter and the injector return line is a very simple reason..............to stop fuel "bleed back to the tank" when the truck sets over night or for days........the fuel filter is mounted at a level above the tank, so if air can be "sucked" into the filter, it can bleed back under some conditions..........isolating the fuel return eliminates a "source of air".....

The reason I want a "positive" pressure and Never a vacuum between the fuel filter and the IP is a simple reason as well....................it HAS A HUGE EFFECT ON THE LOW PRESSURE VANE PUMP IN THE IP SUPPLYING THE FUEL PRESSURE TO THE TIMING ADVANCE TO MAINTAIN THE PROPER TIMING IN UPPER RPMS...............I do not have words to express the importance here..................

To put it in perspective .................when people experience a problem with a "plugging fuel filter" with lack of power and black smoke..................its Not fuel starvation..........it Pressure Starvation to advance the timing.........................if it were fuel starvation, the truck would not even start............

crossbones

 

CB--Good info--Thankyou.