[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-Apr-02 AT 10:32 PM (EST)] I have been wiring cars as a hobby for about 25 years.Be that as it may, I don't pretend to be an expert. However, I have been called in to help complete a job on a beautiful 1937 ****** and feel bound to inform prospective DIY's as to what I have found. The owner of this car chose a universal 12 circuit wiring kit from Painless Wiring. I have installed at least 3 of these kits in the past and have, up til now, recommended them. This will get long-winded if I tell you all the good things about their stuff, here's what's wrong:
They have reduced the guage of their ALL the wires to the point where I am uncomfortable, specifically with regards to the headlights. They offer an accessory upgrade to alleviate this, which I feel has become a neccessity! (factor this into the cost!).
Secondly, they utilize a 15 pin Molex connector which is configured for the various steering column options. This app was the typical GM column. Not only is the Molex connector that they use under-rated for the possible current load, but it is not designed for the large guage wires required. This is why a crimp failed, and one of the heavy main wires actually fell out of the connector!I think that it is time to look carefully at other suppliers and not assume that Painless is the obvious choice!

Todd.

 

Yeah, well, that would be big business. Gotta save a buck somewhere! Beyond the obvious problem of cheap connectors, the reduced wire guage bothers me quite a lot. I'm an electrician by trade and I'm here to tell ya, bigger IS better when it comes to wire. Lighter wire might carry the current, but it'll generate heat. Enough to cause a fire or other catastrophe? Who knows. But one thing is for sure: that heat comes from electrical energy, too. The extra power used to generate this heat puts an extra unnecessary strain on the charging system even if it creates no other problem. More work for the alternator = more power taken away from the rear wheels and more gas outta your tank to make it. Plus that alternator and battery won't last as long. It might not seem like much, but it adds up over time. Is a subpar harness really a good deal? You tell me.

 

Ive been in electronics since the 50's and have wired scores of cars over the years. Show classics to circle track.
Figuring that the manufacturers use the minimal size required over the expected life span of the vehicle I always go at least one size larger on the wiring.

For my own toys I do not depend on crimps for any of the high current paths. I solder as well.
Living in a high tech area it is also easy to find just about any type of scrap wire in partial or complete spools. For under hood use I prefer Teflon insulation and use highly flexible 19 (or more) strand. In any area that could be chafed or nicked I put a piece of "spaghetti" tubing over it.
Connections are to either Mil-Spec terminal blocks or European style quick connects. I wont use US automotive type, particularly Ford and Mopar.

 

Let's get the facts.... I have contacted Painless and invited them to answer this issue, either here or reply back to me.

Lets see what they say. In the past, they have been known for providing a quality product. But money corrupts.

 

Sounds like a big problem in the making though....I recommend EZ wiring. Their kit was easier than I thought after buying a GM Column. Now my truck should be on the road within a couple of weeks I hope... :-)

James
55 Ford 223/3spd (For Sale)
54 Ford 302/AOD

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-May-02 AT 05:07 PM (EST)]Now we know how Urban Legends start. As the Vice President and GM of Painless, I can state unequivically that Todd is, well, painfully, mistaken. It is quite possible, from reading his description of the harness, to conclude that he had an old (very old) Painless kit. It has been a number of years since we have used the 15 pin connector described (something which was discontinued for the very reasons he describes and something which nearly all of our competitors continue to use). It is a more costly production process to do it the way we are now yet we know the change improved the quality of the final product.

I do not know how to address Todd's claim that we have reduced the gauge of the wire except to say it is simply not true. In fact, every circuit in a Painless harness is two gauges bigger than factory spec. It may be that Todd is referring to the thickness of the insulation material, which has nothing to do with the gauge of the wire. The gauge is the copper strand. We use TXL wire, which is the highest quality wire you can buy. The insulation is rated at 275 degrees. Inferior wire like UL uses a cheaper insulation and as a result it has to be thicker. TXL (thermal cross-linked), because it is thin insulation, is much easier to route and won't kink like UL.

I am not sure what the reference to an upgrade for the headlights is all about, unless it concerns our headlight conversion harness, but that has nothing to do with our chassis harness. It is simply a harness to allow for the use of high intensity headlights without burning up your main harness.

Beyond those issues - and I hope I've addressed them all - let me say that Painless has never and would not ever do anything which would compromise the quality of our products. We are here for the long haul. Like you, we are all enthusiasts and, like you, we are all consumers. Far from doing anything that would reduce quality, we are always looking for ways to improve. We are not afraid to take criticism (and, in fact, welcome it). Our goal years ago was to be the best. Now that we are, we intend to stay there.

Adrian Murray
Vice President and GM
Painless Peformance Products

 

Wow. I am very impressed. My experience has always been that your average aftermarket or performance supplier is your best pal until after the sale is made and then he becomes, uh, scarce. It takes a bit of courage to answer a challenge on the quality of your product. That is something that I found most vendors do not possess. I have never used an aftermarket harness or wiring kit built by Painless or any other manufacturer, so I cannot judge quality from experience. Due to the nature of my profession, strong suspicion of of-the-shelf aftermarket parts, and an ample supply of multicolor THHN and MTW, I have always built my own. But Mr. Murray's firm stand behind his product has convinced me that Painless harnesses may be worth a look.

 

Myself, like most other people, had it in my head that what I neede was a painless harness. After I called the in town performance shop and was quoted over (way over) $400, I went to the internet and did some major looking. Like James (the other James), I ended up going with EZ Wiring. it only costed $200 for the some product(21 circuit). I am in the process of installing it and am over-all satisfied. I'm sure the quality could be better, but I did not expect top of the line. Just safe and relativly easy. I believe that for the price you can't complain. The only thing that I can say in the negative is the following:

From what I've read, I believe the the main fusible link is under sized (about 3 sizes smaller than the power wire). It is recomended to be only 2.

Finally. It took about 3 tries to get through to the service department, which I got the feeling was only one guy (maybe a relative). They didn't return my phone calls. He seemed knowledgable, but told me that for my Neutral safety switch just splice it in to the ignition coil wire and that there was no wire labeled Neutral safety swith. I was looking at the thing in my hand. Not a real confidence builder. Overall, I think it will work out nicely. We'll see when I turn the key.

James

 

The reason that Painless has commented on this issue is because I emailed the VP of Product Developement and Tech and provided the URL of this topic. The gentleman that I addressed did not respond to my email and has passed this to the VP of Sales and Marketing. I am releaved to hear that they have eliminated the suspect connector and will agree that the kit may be old, I will check. To suspect that I might be fooled on wire guage by the thickness of the insulation is folly. As stated in my initial post, I am not new to this game.The statement regarding their standards exceed OEM is false and I can cite several examples. I cannot help but wonder if this gentleman has ever repaired a wiring harness that has been damaged by an excessive load. Having done so myself, there is no doubt that erring on the side of caution (heavier wire) is the way to go. Please realize that I am not advising not to use their products as I have always liked their concepts, but I would suggest that one does his homework before assuming that a universal kit alone will do the job.

 

I don't have any experience with Painless, but I have used Ron Francis wiring and found it to be very well made and have had no problems with it. Calls to their tech line were well received and answers prompt. Think I'll stick with Ron Francis Wire-Works.

 

we started using this new type of wire at work.I work in the mining industry and we need tough stuff.
this wire we use is half the diameter of factory wiring and belive me it can take a big load it is rated at 200 deg celcus.
I don't think size matters any more, but quality sure does.
I'll look for the name of it and post it.
just my two cents

 

Ditto. Bad juju re: Painless wire works. "Painful" is more like it. Go with Ron Francis Wire Works... so simple and so complete a line, even I (who can't even program my VCR) could do it! Not cheap, but it's SAFE, complete, color-coded, and they have converters and every option you could think of for your vehicle (ex: cruise, pwr locks/windows, pwr outlets, cig lighters, A/C, etc...) Well worth the $$ just in saving headaces alone! :-)

I got a wiring set-up from Bob's F-100's in Riverside, Ca. It works, but is archaeic, has NO coding to it so now only my electrical mechanic guy knows what wire goes to what (so I have to pay him every time something goes wrong or Iwant to add something), and it's a friggin mess under my dashboard. the Ron Francis kit is clean, tight, organized, and extremely well engineered. If it didn't kill me to pull out $1000 worth of wiring work I have already, I'd get the RF kit in a heart beat and put the thing in in a weekend!
DS

 

I knew there was something fishy about the Painless reply. Wire temperature rating is usually specified in Degrees Celsius.
For instance, Automotive PVC is 105 C which Painless considers "inferior".

A rather extensive web search comes up with a standard automotive primary wire application TXL rating of 125 C, not 275 as quoted above. That is 257 F.
Now there is also a special duty TXL rated at 135 C which equates to 275 F. Coincidence or marketing doublespeak? I have a hard time believing that 135 C wire would be used in general hobby type kits, more likely special applications for racing.

TXL wire is great for (and developed to save weight and decrease wire diameter) modern, compact, gadget laden econo boxes but good old 19 strand 105C PVC will be perfect in our old trucks. Easy availability, economical and uses standard type connectors. And a quantum leap above that old crumbly rubber insulation that our trucks were wired with.

 

Thank You for all your responses. I have to say that this company has impressed me. The gentleman I originally addressed contacted me personally and discussed all of my issues. He encourages us to use his Tech Support staff. Perhaps we should call before we install,they can help choose the right products. I suppose if we did this, most bad expeiences could be avoided. Anyway, very busy getting cars ready for the season, the sun is finally out!

Todd.

 

Ditto to Ron Francis...cost me a litle more but like the other fellow said...it's simple, sized correctly and provides for a very neat hassle free installation. The old addage "you get what you pay for" still applies.