DIY Propane Injection
New User
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
propane injection
Hi guys, I have been following this thread with great interest and came early to the manifolded idea but with microswitches only. They could be as simple as safety switches such as used for clutch down for start only under the throttle pedal etc. Guppies idea for his car scares me though as propane kept in a trunk could turn into a bomb. Having worked the last 30 years on boats and lived on a sailboat useing propane, I have gotten used to various ways to provide safe storage in confined areas. West marines catalog has good info and supplies for propane installs. If propane has any characteristics similar to nitrous oxide than the different "shot" levels would make great sense.
Freshman User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
proper venting would definatly have to be considered but it doesnt seem that hard to over come. if I set everything in the spare tire well for instance with vents cut for air flow, i dont think it would be any more dangerous than a truck instalation. As long as i'm not rearended by a big truck. Talking about my volvo is a little off topic though 
. It is a mechanicly injected idi at least, and if I do get a system together that works well it would find its way to my '87 dumper.
. It is a mechanicly injected idi at least, and if I do get a system together that works well it would find its way to my '87 dumper.
Post Fiend
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,285
Likes: 16
From: Nutter Fort, WV
What the propane does is help the flame spread through the cylinder volume at a faster rate. This is where the increase in power and efficency comes from. Also the flame spreads out to the cooler areas beside the walls of the combustion chamber and ignites the fuel there that may otherwise be only partly burnt during the combustion stage.
Simply dumping more fuel into an engine will only result in more fuel being in the wall area of the combustion chamber being exhausted without being burnt.
There is also a point in the fuel level being injected, that more fuel will actually decrease the amount of power the engine produces. This is because there is so much fuel for the amount of oxygen, that none of it gets completely burnt.
Simply dumping more fuel into an engine will only result in more fuel being in the wall area of the combustion chamber being exhausted without being burnt.
There is also a point in the fuel level being injected, that more fuel will actually decrease the amount of power the engine produces. This is because there is so much fuel for the amount of oxygen, that none of it gets completely burnt.
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
And of course, thats why propane works better in turbo applications.
guppy, I had the propane injection for about 7 mths, reason why I'm not using it at the present time
oct 31, some one tourched my 86 IDI and I do not want the same happening to my 84, so I removed the tank as a precaution more than any thing else.
guppy, I had the propane injection for about 7 mths, reason why I'm not using it at the present time
oct 31, some one tourched my 86 IDI and I do not want the same happening to my 84, so I removed the tank as a precaution more than any thing else.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
From: Powell River B.C.
Sounds to me like the DIY propane idea, though noble, may be more of a liability problem than its worth. Insurance guys dont like home made after products, If you sell it your liable in this day and age, just ask any lawyer, No direspect bc6.9 sorry to hear about your truck being torched, or was it maybe a propane system malfunction, that stuff can be dangerous you know. I'm an aircraft engineer, so I'm cinical and looking for problems by proffession. My Dad was in the propane business, so I know something about the subject as well!!
Last edited by KJLYPW; Dec 4, 2006 at 09:40 PM.
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
KJLPYPW, what part of "tourched" gave you the assumption of a propane malfuction? Some one broke into my
NON PROPANE
1986 F250 6.9 4x4 extended cab and lite it on fire!
I agree that propane missused can be dangerous and "home made after products" can have liability issues...that's one of the reasons I purchased a proven product from a reliable manufactor.
As you are an air craft engineer, you no dought know propane was used in some earlier air crafts to increase performance...not that I would dare to compare an IDI to a aircraft engine but used responcefully, propane injection can increase performance and mpg's.
NON PROPANE
1986 F250 6.9 4x4 extended cab and lite it on fire!
I agree that propane missused can be dangerous and "home made after products" can have liability issues...that's one of the reasons I purchased a proven product from a reliable manufactor.
As you are an air craft engineer, you no dought know propane was used in some earlier air crafts to increase performance...not that I would dare to compare an IDI to a aircraft engine but used responcefully, propane injection can increase performance and mpg's.
Last edited by bc6.9; Dec 5, 2006 at 09:15 PM.
New User
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
propane injection
The largest single problem with propane, other than the obvious failure to secure the tank, bad joints, [leaky] etc. is the simple fact that it is heavier than air and thus sinks and gathers in low areas, boat bilges, wheel wells, [unvented] and becomes a bomb waiting for ignition. A properly secured tank in a well ventilated area, with the newer pressure relief systems is less likely to cause a fire than a gasoline tank. If the trial on an individuals vehicle proves worthy, a permanently mounted tank, ala rv's use for lpg furnaces etc can be more than safe enough if professionally installed to satisfy any insurance co. I used an ex Snap-On truck for a rolling shop for a while. It had a lpg furnace and a horizontal tank under the van body. It used solenoids to control the gas flow into the furnace. Thousands of these are in use with no problems. The real question comes back to potential benefit vs cost or...... is the tinkering the big draw? Dryrot.
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Feasability is the one thing I have not done,
-cost of propane vs fuel savings
If diesel prices continue to rise, the answer is easy, but you must add the performance factor as well....
while I have installed a propane injection system in my IDI, I am not happy with the performance under load. In a turbo application, I expect greater results.
-cost of propane vs fuel savings
If diesel prices continue to rise, the answer is easy, but you must add the performance factor as well....
while I have installed a propane injection system in my IDI, I am not happy with the performance under load. In a turbo application, I expect greater results.
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
Top 10 Fords at 2026 Carlisle Ford Nationals
Joe Kucinski
3 Best / 3 Worst Parts of Modern Ford Ownership
Brett Foote
10 Amazing Upgrades That Solve Common Ford Truck Owner Headaches
Pouria Savadkouei
Every 2026 Ford Engine Explained
Brett Foote
10 Ugly Ford Trucks That We Still Kinda Love
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Every Truck Owner NEEDS (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalyptic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
From: Kent WA
No disrespect KJLYPW, but I think you may have allowed your cynical side to lead you to assume a few things.
Yes, propane if improperly stored and insufficiently vented can present some dangers. Yes, if a person (such as myself) sells a product like this, there can be liability issues. However, with the proper warnings and disclaimers, most if not all of it can be deflected.
The liability issues with a "proven product" from a large company are no less. The big boys just have lawyers to draft their warnings and disclaimers, and insurance policies to protect them from liability claims and lawsuits.
That is why I would be consulting a lawyer to draft the appropriate warnings and liability disclaimers before selling a system I designed to anyone that I didn't personally know and trust. What's more, I would be selling an incomplete system - minus the tank - and leaving it to the end user to supply their own. This fact alone would relieve me of any liability for the most problematic part of the system - the propane storage.
Yes, propane if improperly stored and insufficiently vented can present some dangers. Yes, if a person (such as myself) sells a product like this, there can be liability issues. However, with the proper warnings and disclaimers, most if not all of it can be deflected.
The liability issues with a "proven product" from a large company are no less. The big boys just have lawyers to draft their warnings and disclaimers, and insurance policies to protect them from liability claims and lawsuits.
That is why I would be consulting a lawyer to draft the appropriate warnings and liability disclaimers before selling a system I designed to anyone that I didn't personally know and trust. What's more, I would be selling an incomplete system - minus the tank - and leaving it to the end user to supply their own. This fact alone would relieve me of any liability for the most problematic part of the system - the propane storage.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
From: Kent WA
Originally Posted by bc6.9
Feasability is the one thing I have not done,
-cost of propane vs fuel savings
If diesel prices continue to rise, the answer is easy, but you must add the performance factor as well....
while I have installed a propane injection system in my IDI, I am not happy with the performance under load. In a turbo application, I expect greater results.
-cost of propane vs fuel savings
If diesel prices continue to rise, the answer is easy, but you must add the performance factor as well....
while I have installed a propane injection system in my IDI, I am not happy with the performance under load. In a turbo application, I expect greater results.
Who makes it? Is it a single stage (on/off) system? What kind of control does it use? A switch? A variable valve? Some other method?
I'd be very interested to learn more about it - including reading the seller's literature...
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Cheaper, if you go to the Bullydog web site, you can read the install literature on line. If that doesn't work for you, let me know. The one thing that dissappointed me was the lack of support from their techs....it took for ever to get an anwer to my question and when I did, it was wrong.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
From: Powell River B.C.
As I mentioned in my post NO Disrespect or accusation towards anyone, nor did I assume your truck fire was a result of propaneBC6.9(and again I'm sorry about that-nothing makes you feel as violated as someone messing with or stealing your stuff). The point was a purchased system would have to be safe and use proven and APPROVED components, the whole point of this thread however is DIY- Do It Yourself, I was mearly pointing out from my technical/legally approved perspective that I have to deal with in my line of work that one has to be careful about what you install or promote on a vehicle- fuel sytem stuff should be properly engineerd and approved for all the legal issues that can be associated with selling. Disclaimers may or more likely will not save your butt if something goes wrong with a product you design for sale. Just ask an outfit like Cessna how much of the purchase price of a new plane goes toward liability insurance.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
From: Kent WA
Originally Posted by bc6.9
Cheaper, if you go to the Bullydog web site, you can read the install literature on line. If that doesn't work for you, let me know. The one thing that dissappointed me was the lack of support from their techs....it took for ever to get an anwer to my question and when I did, it was wrong.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
From: Kent WA
Originally Posted by KJLYPW
As I mentioned in my post NO Disrespect or accusation towards anyone, nor did I assume your truck fire was a result of propaneBC6.9(and again I'm sorry about that-nothing makes you feel as violated as someone messing with or stealing your stuff). The point was a purchased system would have to be safe and use proven and APPROVED components, the whole point of this thread however is DIY- Do It Yourself, I was mearly pointing out from my technical/legally approved perspective that I have to deal with in my line of work that one has to be careful about what you install or promote on a vehicle- fuel sytem stuff should be properly engineerd and approved for all the legal issues that can be associated with selling. Disclaimers may or more likely will not save your butt if something goes wrong with a product you design for sale. Just ask an outfit like Cessna how much of the purchase price of a new plane goes toward liability insurance.
I also understand the point about the Cessna - and where you're coming from being in that industry. However, that's somewhat of an apples and oranges thing. A failure of the propane system (not including the tank which I will not be supplying) isn't going to cause a crash resulting in death....
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
KJLYPW, I completly understand where your comming from, and thats the beauty of the propane injection system I have now...it can be installed into any diesel, so if I decide to sell my truck, I'd remove the system and install it in the newer diesel.