MSRP Vs Invoice
New User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
I agree with Ol' Yeller. An honest car salesman is a rare find around here. I treated them with much respect until they tried to tell me my financial calculator was wrong (I have a degree in finance and know how to use a financial calculator) and tried to give me half of what my truck is worth. Poor sales people boo-hoo...BS
Elder User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
From: Aromas, CA
my local dealer (sunnyvale ford) is offering 11000 off msrp! cant belive that! i just bought mine for 7500 below and i thought i got a great deal. mabey i should have waited a few more months.
keep it ford
keep it ford
Laughing Gas
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
Polar,
Where does the $90.00 Doc fee come into play with xplan pricing. Have heard that xplan covers it and also have heard that it doesnt.
Also what about the Dealer Holdback amount listed on the invoice, isnt dealer holdback a hidden profit and is it negotiable even when getting xplan pricing?
Thanks
Where does the $90.00 Doc fee come into play with xplan pricing. Have heard that xplan covers it and also have heard that it doesnt.
Also what about the Dealer Holdback amount listed on the invoice, isnt dealer holdback a hidden profit and is it negotiable even when getting xplan pricing?
Thanks
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,508
Likes: 0
From: Utopia
Originally Posted by ol'yeller
Most Ford Dealers here in WA list their inventory online. I last looked 2 years ago when buying my wife's Escape. I found many also would post the Mullrooney Sticker (MSRP window sticker) too. I then applied the list of options to the Edmunds.com website to find true invoice. I subtracted all rebates and incentives, added $200 for profit and then went to the dealer to make the deal. I have never paid more than $200 over invoice (after rebates & incentives) on any new car including a 2005 Jetta for my daughter. All the dealer has to believe is that if he doesn't make the deal, some other dealer will. You need to get the dealer invested in you (show interest, take a test drive) and then work for the number you arrived at. A few dealers are smart, figure out that you know what you are doing, and cut their expenses by selling to you quickly and get onto the next guy to make money. Some of these also have an Internet guy or Fleet manager but beware, many do not catch on that you know what you are doing and try to pull games on you. I have seen phony invoices and inflated invoices as well as second stickers. Many others are stupid and waste your time and theirs to get to where they will wind up. After I have "hooked" a salesperson and we begin the dance, I try to let them know that I know what I am doing and I'm looking for a fast deal. If they don't come around in a half hour, I let them know I am walking out and going to the next Ford dealer. This will only work if you do your homework, know who has what truck and what the invoice and rebate/incentives are. And finally don't fall so in love with a vehicle that you can't walk out on it. I always make sure they have my cell phone number early in the negotiations. Several times, I will get a call before I get 5 miles away accepting my deal. Yeah, it's a pain, yeah it's a stupid way to buy a truck but if you save a couple thousand, you can buy more goodies for your truck. But for gawd's sake not from the dealer!!!
My favorite line when the dealer is lowballing your trade (assuming its a ford): "Can I expect my new 07 Ford truck to lose 50% of its value in two years?"
Obviously substitute in the correct years and percentages.
I absolutely hate the amount of your time they waste when trying to make a deal.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,728
Likes: 1
From: Damascus-Boring, Ore
Originally Posted by SDTruckMan
Polar,
Where does the $90.00 Doc fee come into play with xplan pricing. Have heard that xplan covers it and also have heard that it doesnt.
Also what about the Dealer Holdback amount listed on the invoice, isnt dealer holdback a hidden profit and is it negotiable even when getting xplan pricing?
Thanks
Where does the $90.00 Doc fee come into play with xplan pricing. Have heard that xplan covers it and also have heard that it doesnt.
Also what about the Dealer Holdback amount listed on the invoice, isnt dealer holdback a hidden profit and is it negotiable even when getting xplan pricing?
Thanks
Holdback is a reserve account credit. There are certain expenses charged to a dealers open account that holdback is paid out of, so holdback amount itself is a gross rather than net profit item.
Last edited by polarbear; Aug 30, 2006 at 10:52 PM.
New User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
I understand the joy of a brand new truck, but I believe you get a better deal on a low milage "pre-owned" truck, that has 10k to 25k on it.
Although finding a low milage F-250 is not easy.
Just driving a new truck off the lot, you lose money.
With that said, if money was no object, I would buy a new truck for the shear joy and pleasure of it.
just my 2 cents..
Although finding a low milage F-250 is not easy.
Just driving a new truck off the lot, you lose money.
With that said, if money was no object, I would buy a new truck for the shear joy and pleasure of it.
just my 2 cents..
Laughing Gas
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
Thanks for the Info Polar.
Another question however.
If the truck in question invoice reads
Invoice 37515.00
AZ plan 35882.50
D Plan 35982.50
Xplan 37440.44
Holdback is 1235.00
Theres only 75.06 diff between Invoice and Xplan.
now looking at a/z plan theres 1633.00 diff between that and invoice.
So technically if you can negotiate to the price of the a/z plan the dealer is still making money? Or is ford giving them a kick back for the difference between invoice an a/z plan
The invoice info was faxed to me by the dealer so unless they are playing with the numbers on the fax copy. I dont understand how the dealer can sell the truck at a/z plan which is less then the invoice of the truck.
Thanks again
Another question however.
If the truck in question invoice reads
Invoice 37515.00
AZ plan 35882.50
D Plan 35982.50
Xplan 37440.44
Holdback is 1235.00
Theres only 75.06 diff between Invoice and Xplan.
now looking at a/z plan theres 1633.00 diff between that and invoice.
So technically if you can negotiate to the price of the a/z plan the dealer is still making money? Or is ford giving them a kick back for the difference between invoice an a/z plan
The invoice info was faxed to me by the dealer so unless they are playing with the numbers on the fax copy. I dont understand how the dealer can sell the truck at a/z plan which is less then the invoice of the truck.
Thanks again
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Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,728
Likes: 1
From: Damascus-Boring, Ore
The dealership gets paid a comission on all "plan" purchases. Obviously, it's higher on A/D/Z Plans than it is X Plan. Incentives are often higher for A/D/Z Plan members as well. It should be noted that selling at plan price is optional for the dealer- he can accept or decline a plan sale at any time.
The formula for A/Z and D plan is invoice less holdback plus a fixed amount ($150, I think ). I also believe dealer is reimbursed for FDAF.
The formula for A/Z and D plan is invoice less holdback plus a fixed amount ($150, I think ). I also believe dealer is reimbursed for FDAF.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,653
Likes: 977
From: Near Yosemite CA
Bought my 94 350 4x CC, 99 250 4x CC 7.3, 02 Exc 4x 7.3 on the A plan, my uncle retired from Ford, and no, they can't really decline selling you the vehicle, I mean yes, they can, but you can go to a dealer down the street w/the VIN of the truck, and they can pull it from the other dealers lot and sell it to you.
And no I don't treat salesmen with disrespect, I just won't buy from a dis-honest idiot who wants to play creative financing with MY MONEY, do you get treated like that when you buy any other services, I don't, and I refuse to. I am very straight forward and honest with them, if they want my business, they will do the same.
Hopefully this whole vehicle thing, slow down will make the dealers wake up and get rid of the morons. Best dealership I have gone to was believe it or not was a Mercedes, wife was wanting one. They have all the vehicles open, and they stay away until you have a question and then answer and back off. No telling you what you like or what you should look at.
And no I don't treat salesmen with disrespect, I just won't buy from a dis-honest idiot who wants to play creative financing with MY MONEY, do you get treated like that when you buy any other services, I don't, and I refuse to. I am very straight forward and honest with them, if they want my business, they will do the same.
Hopefully this whole vehicle thing, slow down will make the dealers wake up and get rid of the morons. Best dealership I have gone to was believe it or not was a Mercedes, wife was wanting one. They have all the vehicles open, and they stay away until you have a question and then answer and back off. No telling you what you like or what you should look at.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by polarbear
The dealership gets paid a comission on all "plan" purchases. Obviously, it's higher on A/D/Z Plans than it is X Plan. Incentives are often higher for A/D/Z Plan members as well. It should be noted that selling at plan price is optional for the dealer- he can accept or decline a plan sale at any time.
The formula for A/Z and D plan is invoice less holdback plus a fixed amount ($150, I think ). I also believe dealer is reimbursed for FDAF.
The formula for A/Z and D plan is invoice less holdback plus a fixed amount ($150, I think ). I also believe dealer is reimbursed for FDAF.
The last dealer I talked to would sell to me at xplan price, Not having a pin# was no problem.
If the "dealership gets paid on all "plan" purchases and If the dealer will sell at xplan price without any pin#s, does that mean they are losing the commission from ford. and if not why couldnt they sell at A/Z or D without any problem about losing the commission from ford.
?????
Last edited by SDTruckMan; Aug 31, 2006 at 10:45 AM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,728
Likes: 1
From: Damascus-Boring, Ore
He could sell it to you for any figure he wants- but why would he sell for a loss? Without the PIN, there's no comission from Ford. This is kind of obvious stuff, if you think about it. What you're really asking is "why can't the dealer sell me a new truck at a loss." The answer's pretty self-evident.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by polarbear
He could sell it to you for any figure he wants- but why would he sell for a loss? Without the PIN, there's no comission from Ford. This is kind of obvious stuff, if you think about it. What you're really asking is "why can't the dealer sell me a new truck at a loss." The answer's pretty self-evident.
Why would he sell for a loss? Got me, and im not asking him to. But he said he would sell for xplan which is lower than invoice, without me coming up with a pin, so no commission from ford i guess. Which means hes making some money somewhere.
So that got me curious about the A/Z and D plans which are also lower than his stated invoice price. Obviously if they can sell at those prices, which is lower than invoice, there has to be bargining room or a kick back from ford.. Thus my orginial question.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,728
Likes: 1
From: Damascus-Boring, Ore
One of the two of us isn't connecting here somehow. X-Plan is just about invoice, and involves a little baby commission. It's not a great deal, but a dealer might sell one for that to move a unit. A/D/Z plan is a lot under invoice, and involves a lot bigger commission- it's pretty much like selling x-Plan after all the smoke clears. Nothing to think about there- at least from the dealer's point of view.
What you forget is you're only focused on one aspect of the car deal- the price. The dealer is looking at the trade, financing, accessories insurance, extended warranties, possible dealer cash. Heck, it's a prett long list. The easiest way to turn a loser into a winner is financing- give me four points (not that hard- you'll never know
) and I can turn a $1000 loser into a nice profit in a heartbeat. Where you're setting yourself up, though, is the further into the hole you get the dealer to go on the selling price, the more likely the dealer is to make it up on the back end. One way or other, odds are that vehicle is going to roll off of the lot profitably- just a question of where the money's going to be made.