E85
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Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Delaware
E85
E85 is not readily available here in Delaware as it is in the Midwest, but I am getting ready for it.
It is relatively easy to reprogram my EFI 400 for E85 provided that the injectors are large enough to accomodate the increase in fuel. I simply tell the computer that the injectors are 30% smaller than they are and the computer will supply 30% more fuel as required for E85. The other considerations are fuel pump flow rate and the materials used in my system. I have a 255 lph pump, so I should cover the flow rate. E85 is not as corrosive as methanol, and most modern fuel components should be compatible.
My 42# injectors are ample for my motor under hard acceleration on gasoline, but they may be stretched on E85 under extreme conditions.
Since I am using a Tweecer to tune my computer, I can use one of the 4 available tunes for gasoline and one for E85.
It is relatively easy to reprogram my EFI 400 for E85 provided that the injectors are large enough to accomodate the increase in fuel. I simply tell the computer that the injectors are 30% smaller than they are and the computer will supply 30% more fuel as required for E85. The other considerations are fuel pump flow rate and the materials used in my system. I have a 255 lph pump, so I should cover the flow rate. E85 is not as corrosive as methanol, and most modern fuel components should be compatible.
My 42# injectors are ample for my motor under hard acceleration on gasoline, but they may be stretched on E85 under extreme conditions.
Since I am using a Tweecer to tune my computer, I can use one of the 4 available tunes for gasoline and one for E85.
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From: chicago burbs
i've been mulling it over a bit too, planning an 11.5:1 build for it. http://www.supermotors.org/vehicles/....php?id=286502
i kept a plastic diesel fiver full of E85 and it swelled the rubber gasket in the cap so i'm wondering what to do about the O ring at the fuel sender, the fill tube grommet, the tank vent grommet and the fill cap too. might have to go to fuel cells in the bed like Mad Max and just use the stock tank and Holley blue pump/regulator for nitrous enrichment fuel? i've been checking into fuel hose specs too, the old hardware store gas line won't cut it any more! it needs to be special lined to handle the alky, even for current "pump gas" with 10% mazola. i'm gonna upgrade the hoses in my S/C'd Z3 Roadster too so i don't have to worry when i add a few gallons to the mix. BTW, i have an E85 pump right down the street!
i kept a plastic diesel fiver full of E85 and it swelled the rubber gasket in the cap so i'm wondering what to do about the O ring at the fuel sender, the fill tube grommet, the tank vent grommet and the fill cap too. might have to go to fuel cells in the bed like Mad Max and just use the stock tank and Holley blue pump/regulator for nitrous enrichment fuel? i've been checking into fuel hose specs too, the old hardware store gas line won't cut it any more! it needs to be special lined to handle the alky, even for current "pump gas" with 10% mazola. i'm gonna upgrade the hoses in my S/C'd Z3 Roadster too so i don't have to worry when i add a few gallons to the mix. BTW, i have an E85 pump right down the street!
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
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11.5:1 AND nitrous???? I hope you are not planning on running pump gas also. You will need Viton and Teflon for your fuel system. Check out some of the stuff for alcohol racing fuel at Jeggs etc.
I have posted this b4 but::::
http://www.answers.com/topic/e85
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/infr...e/locator.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
There is some info on materials and hazards in the above links.
I have posted this b4 but::::
http://www.answers.com/topic/e85
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/infr...e/locator.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
There is some info on materials and hazards in the above links.
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Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Delaware
I have a new aluminum underbed tank, and mostly AN-6 fuel line. My fuel rails are aluminum. I expect that my Ford Motorsports injector O-rings are Viton. I will have to replace any rubber fuel lines.
Is AN-6 alcohol resistant?
I'll look around for Stainless Steel fuel rails, but I'll take my chances with my aluminum tank. Since E85 is not available here at this time, this is a long term project.
That is some good information, Eric.
Is AN-6 alcohol resistant?
I'll look around for Stainless Steel fuel rails, but I'll take my chances with my aluminum tank. Since E85 is not available here at this time, this is a long term project.
That is some good information, Eric.
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
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Water in the fuel is the big problem with corrosion. Unfortunately alcohol sucks water right out of the air! 
As far as the AN-6 fuel line, -check with the manufacturer. Fuel lines for alcohol are normally lined with a Teflon-like material. I can' think of the name at the moment tho...
As long as you keep your bi-fuel capability you will be OK. You may want to set up several performance maps for different percentages of each fuel since they will be mixed in the tank. Kind of like what the sensors do for you in a flex fuel setup. You could also run dual tanks, one tank for each fuel.
The limited availability of E85 will limit your "range" if you are set up for E85 only.
As far as the AN-6 fuel line, -check with the manufacturer. Fuel lines for alcohol are normally lined with a Teflon-like material. I can' think of the name at the moment tho...
As long as you keep your bi-fuel capability you will be OK. You may want to set up several performance maps for different percentages of each fuel since they will be mixed in the tank. Kind of like what the sensors do for you in a flex fuel setup. You could also run dual tanks, one tank for each fuel.
The limited availability of E85 will limit your "range" if you are set up for E85 only.
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Postmaster
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From: Delaware
It is TFE lining. Some AN-6 manufacturers do state TFE. I suspect mine is not TFE lined.
I just heard that the State of Delaware is considering some legislation to mandate E85 distribution throughout the state. That still will take a few years.
I am fortunate that my '53 is emissions exempt. I have the flexibility to make modifications, but most others cannot legally modify their fuel system, even though the modifications will aid in reducing emmisions.
I just heard that the State of Delaware is considering some legislation to mandate E85 distribution throughout the state. That still will take a few years.
I am fortunate that my '53 is emissions exempt. I have the flexibility to make modifications, but most others cannot legally modify their fuel system, even though the modifications will aid in reducing emmisions.
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: chicago burbs
"I hope you are not planning on running pump gas also"
93 super premium isn't enough octane to support 11.5:1, i used to run aviation LL100 and it ran great but getting it was hit and miss. E85 is a few points over 100 octane, and it comes out of a pump...could i say it runs on pump gas?
i'm still learning about what materials are long term compatible with alky, Viton is OK? Jegs has a hose called Pro Flo 200, PN 555-100900 thru 555-100944, -4 thru -12 that i'm looking at for the Z3. Russel "twist-lok hose" from Jegs says it's alky rated , but not all hose is up to the challenge! it has to be spec'd for alky or it'll disolve from the inside out. there is submersible spec hose for inside tanks too. Dan, you better check the specs on your pump too, they have to be built of alky resistant materials. a lot of the high end pumps are good to go but check it out.
93 super premium isn't enough octane to support 11.5:1, i used to run aviation LL100 and it ran great but getting it was hit and miss. E85 is a few points over 100 octane, and it comes out of a pump...could i say it runs on pump gas?
i'm still learning about what materials are long term compatible with alky, Viton is OK? Jegs has a hose called Pro Flo 200, PN 555-100900 thru 555-100944, -4 thru -12 that i'm looking at for the Z3. Russel "twist-lok hose" from Jegs says it's alky rated , but not all hose is up to the challenge! it has to be spec'd for alky or it'll disolve from the inside out. there is submersible spec hose for inside tanks too. Dan, you better check the specs on your pump too, they have to be built of alky resistant materials. a lot of the high end pumps are good to go but check it out.
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Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Delaware
My pump is a Walbro GSL292? and the regulator is an Aeromotive. I'll do some research on those.
All alcohol is not equal. Ethanol is less corrosive than Methanol. Some materials may be OK for Ethanol, but not for Methanol.
If Detroit can build E85 vehicles, I think that I can also.
All alcohol is not equal. Ethanol is less corrosive than Methanol. Some materials may be OK for Ethanol, but not for Methanol.
If Detroit can build E85 vehicles, I think that I can also.
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Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
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There is some good info on corrosion in those links above.
Unfortunately all alcohol fuels are contaminated with water thru the distribution process. They do list some checks you as a driver can do for gross water contamination. While Methanol is supposedly more corrosive than Ethanol the materials remain much the same that will work with them. The funny thing is that pure alcohol is easier to use than a mix of alcohol and gas. The materials that stand up to one or the other do not perform so well with mixtures. Some tables that show material compatibility:
http://www.parker.com/o-ring/Literature/07-5700.pdf
I used to run 130 octane Av-gas in my old FE engine that was 12.5:1 compression. I normally ran Phillips Flight-Fuel which was a super premium automotive fuel at 115 octane. The only time I ran AV gas was when the local stations were out of the 115 octane. The engine liked that 130 stuff tho...
Anhydrous ethanol in the absence of direct exposure to alkali metals and bases is non-corrosive; it is only when water is mixed with the ethanol that the mixture becomes corrosive to some metals.
http://www.parker.com/o-ring/Literature/07-5700.pdf
I used to run 130 octane Av-gas in my old FE engine that was 12.5:1 compression. I normally ran Phillips Flight-Fuel which was a super premium automotive fuel at 115 octane. The only time I ran AV gas was when the local stations were out of the 115 octane. The engine liked that 130 stuff tho...
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Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Delaware
My Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator is alcohol compatible.
The Walbro pump needs to be "flushed with mineral spirits after each use". I am trying to get a definition of 'each use' from them.
My 42 lbs/hr injectors are sized right for a 540 HP motor on gasoline, with a little cushion, at 39.6 lbs fuel presure. I would need 72 lbs/hr injectors to use alcohol at the same HP and fuel pressure. That would mean low impedence injectors and injector drivers.
I could lncrease the fuel pressure, but even at 55 lbs fuel pressure I only have 49 lbs/hrs of fuel flow. If I used 48 lb/hr injectors and 55 lbs fuel pressure, I coud get 56 lbs/hr fuel flow. I don't think that High Impedence injectors are available at higher fuel flow than 48 lbs/hr.
E85 will have to be plentiful and cheap, before I do this conversion. It may be practical for lower HP motors, however.
The Walbro pump needs to be "flushed with mineral spirits after each use". I am trying to get a definition of 'each use' from them.
My 42 lbs/hr injectors are sized right for a 540 HP motor on gasoline, with a little cushion, at 39.6 lbs fuel presure. I would need 72 lbs/hr injectors to use alcohol at the same HP and fuel pressure. That would mean low impedence injectors and injector drivers.
I could lncrease the fuel pressure, but even at 55 lbs fuel pressure I only have 49 lbs/hrs of fuel flow. If I used 48 lb/hr injectors and 55 lbs fuel pressure, I coud get 56 lbs/hr fuel flow. I don't think that High Impedence injectors are available at higher fuel flow than 48 lbs/hr.
E85 will have to be plentiful and cheap, before I do this conversion. It may be practical for lower HP motors, however.
Posting Legend
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As I under stand it, "flushed with mineral spirits after each use", means after each day of racing b4 you put it on the trailer. It will be interesting to hear what you find out. But in any case, I don't think the pump would be good for use with E85.
Some parts may be alcohol compatible but not gas (or a mix like E10/E85) compatible.
Some parts may be alcohol compatible but not gas (or a mix like E10/E85) compatible.
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,931
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From: SW Michigan
E85 job
DanLee, yeah, your 53 is emission exempt. Don't know what delaware says about conversion jobs on newer stuff, but here in michigan, MCL 324.6311 & MCL 324.6512 give alternative fueled cars and trucks exemption from emission testing. Just in case anyone wants to know......DF
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Postmaster
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From: Delaware
Originally Posted by Torque1st
As I under stand it, "flushed with mineral spirits after each use", means after each day of racing b4 you put it on the trailer. It will be interesting to hear what you find out. But in any case, I don't think the pump would be good for use with E85.
Some parts may be alcohol compatible but not gas (or a mix like E10/E85) compatible.
Some parts may be alcohol compatible but not gas (or a mix like E10/E85) compatible.
I don't know if Delaware, has any exemption for alternative fueled vehicles, they may in the future. Even if there was such a thing on the books now, the State Emissions inspectors wouldn't have any knowledge of it.
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From: Delaware
I found a High Impedance 71.6 lbs/hr @43 psi fuel pressure. It is made by someone in California. The price is $98.75/ea.
Even at that price there is no gaurantee that they will work properly. The problem with large high Impedance injectors is slow action times. I could have problems at idle on gasoline, but the longer pulse width required for E85 should be OK.
Even at that price there is no gaurantee that they will work properly. The problem with large high Impedance injectors is slow action times. I could have problems at idle on gasoline, but the longer pulse width required for E85 should be OK.
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