More Ethanol Data/facts
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More Ethanol Data/facts
Flex-fuel fans beware
Consumer Reports says mileage takes a hit with ethanol blend
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Sport-utility loyalists may be four-wheeling through the wrong mud bog if they think ethanol-friendly SUVs will cut gas costs and help the U.S. curb its dependence on foreign oil, according to a Consumer Reports study. The consumer watchdog publication ran a battery of tests on the 2007 Chevy Tahoe flexible-fuel vehicle, which can run on either E85 -- a mixture consisting of 85% ethanol -- or gasoline, and found that the SUV's mileage dropped from 14 mpg to 10 mpg on E85.
The decline could be expected in any flex-fuel vehicle, the report said, because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline.
So the already expensive fill-up gets even more painful. With E85 costing an average of $2.91 in August, the fuel-economy penalty means drivers are essentially paying almost $4 for the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline, the report said.
Another way of looking at it: Consumer Reports found that the Tahoe's driving range decreased to 300 miles on a full tank from 440 on gasoline -- more trips to the pump, if drivers can even find a pump.
Of the 176,000 gas stations in the country, only about 800 sell E85. As it stands now, most people can't realistically use those pumps because they're primarily located in Midwest corn country, where the ethanol is produced. Reasons for the scarcity range from stricter regulations in some states to difficulty in shipping the fuel.
But Ron Lamberty, the head of market development at the American Coalition for Ethanol, said there's much more to the story than just saving a few bucks.
"If you're concerned about emissions, you should use E85," he said. "If you want to make sure the money you spend is circulated through the American economy rather than some South American or Middle Eastern country, the choice is E85."
Even the assertion that ethanol is costlier isn't necessarily true in the long run, he pointed out.
For one thing, lower BTU in ethanol means less heat, which translates to longer engine life, he explained. Also, if converting current pumps was allowed, it would take only a couple months before the alternative fuel was available from coast to coast.
"If you're buying a flex-fuel vehicle for the cheapest fuel, you can have the cheapest fuel," he said. "When gas is cheaper, you can use gas, and when E85 is cheaper, you can use that."
Even more dependent
One of the primary motivations for the build-out of ethanol is that it will ease the nation's dependence on oil from the Middle East and help the U.S. move away from sucking up nonrenewable resources. But there's a wrinkle in that logic.
Despite the difficulty of finding E85 pumps, the Big Three have built more than 5 million flex-fuel vehicles since the late 1990, with that number increasing by about 1 million this year, Consumer Reports forecast.
The government credits vehicles that can run on E85 with about two-thirds more fuel economy than they actually get using gasoline, even though they may never run on E85. For example, the two-wheel drive version of the Tahoe used in the study would normally be rated at 21 mpg. But because it can run on E85, it earns a 35 mpg credit.
Consumer Reports says mileage takes a hit with ethanol blend
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Sport-utility loyalists may be four-wheeling through the wrong mud bog if they think ethanol-friendly SUVs will cut gas costs and help the U.S. curb its dependence on foreign oil, according to a Consumer Reports study. The consumer watchdog publication ran a battery of tests on the 2007 Chevy Tahoe flexible-fuel vehicle, which can run on either E85 -- a mixture consisting of 85% ethanol -- or gasoline, and found that the SUV's mileage dropped from 14 mpg to 10 mpg on E85.
The decline could be expected in any flex-fuel vehicle, the report said, because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline.
So the already expensive fill-up gets even more painful. With E85 costing an average of $2.91 in August, the fuel-economy penalty means drivers are essentially paying almost $4 for the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline, the report said.
Another way of looking at it: Consumer Reports found that the Tahoe's driving range decreased to 300 miles on a full tank from 440 on gasoline -- more trips to the pump, if drivers can even find a pump.
Of the 176,000 gas stations in the country, only about 800 sell E85. As it stands now, most people can't realistically use those pumps because they're primarily located in Midwest corn country, where the ethanol is produced. Reasons for the scarcity range from stricter regulations in some states to difficulty in shipping the fuel.
But Ron Lamberty, the head of market development at the American Coalition for Ethanol, said there's much more to the story than just saving a few bucks.
"If you're concerned about emissions, you should use E85," he said. "If you want to make sure the money you spend is circulated through the American economy rather than some South American or Middle Eastern country, the choice is E85."
Even the assertion that ethanol is costlier isn't necessarily true in the long run, he pointed out.
For one thing, lower BTU in ethanol means less heat, which translates to longer engine life, he explained. Also, if converting current pumps was allowed, it would take only a couple months before the alternative fuel was available from coast to coast.
"If you're buying a flex-fuel vehicle for the cheapest fuel, you can have the cheapest fuel," he said. "When gas is cheaper, you can use gas, and when E85 is cheaper, you can use that."
Even more dependent
One of the primary motivations for the build-out of ethanol is that it will ease the nation's dependence on oil from the Middle East and help the U.S. move away from sucking up nonrenewable resources. But there's a wrinkle in that logic.
Despite the difficulty of finding E85 pumps, the Big Three have built more than 5 million flex-fuel vehicles since the late 1990, with that number increasing by about 1 million this year, Consumer Reports forecast.
The government credits vehicles that can run on E85 with about two-thirds more fuel economy than they actually get using gasoline, even though they may never run on E85. For example, the two-wheel drive version of the Tahoe used in the study would normally be rated at 21 mpg. But because it can run on E85, it earns a 35 mpg credit.
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Interesting article. Maybe this post should be moved to the alternate fuel forum. But there are a couple of points I would like to discuss...
Seems like a fairly large drop in efficiency on E85. I have definitely noticed that different makes of vehicles respond differently to the E85, though. Even different vehicles within the same make/model seem to respond differently.
I don't know when this article was written, but the numbers seem to be a little off here. The 1000th E85 pump was installed around October 2006.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...ations_hi.html
Some sources quoting 'nearly 1200'
http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.htm
Some 'over 1200' as of may 2007
http://www.e85fuel.com/news/050707_1...ns_release.htm
True, much of it is located in the mid-west, but much of the mid west supply also comes in 15-20% less per gallon than gasoline, so that helps offset some, if not all of the mpg pinch (ie - miles per dollar spent are almost equivalent)
The last sentence being my main reason for using E85 when possible. F@#^ the mid-east. The sooner we are independent of mid east crude, the better.
Sounds good to me
OK - please explain this wrinkle
Is this the explanation for the 'wrinkle'? Or did that get cut off somewhere? Using the numbers from the article ...14mpg on gasoline, 10 mpg on E85 (15% gasoline). So on E85, you actually drove (10mpg / 15%) = 66.6 miles per gallon of gasoline. (ie one gallon of gas can be mixed to make over 6 gallons of E85) Seems like a good start to me.
Originally Posted by TOMHONE
Flex-fuel fans beware
Consumer Reports says mileage takes a hit with ethanol blend
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Sport-utility loyalists may be four-wheeling through the wrong mud bog if they think ethanol-friendly SUVs will cut gas costs and help the U.S. curb its dependence on foreign oil, according to a Consumer Reports study. The consumer watchdog publication ran a battery of tests on the 2007 Chevy Tahoe flexible-fuel vehicle, which can run on either E85 -- a mixture consisting of 85% ethanol -- or gasoline, and found that the SUV's mileage dropped from 14 mpg to 10 mpg on E85.
The decline could be expected in any flex-fuel vehicle, the report said, because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline.
So the already expensive fill-up gets even more painful. With E85 costing an average of $2.91 in August, the fuel-economy penalty means drivers are essentially paying almost $4 for the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline, the report said.
Consumer Reports says mileage takes a hit with ethanol blend
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Sport-utility loyalists may be four-wheeling through the wrong mud bog if they think ethanol-friendly SUVs will cut gas costs and help the U.S. curb its dependence on foreign oil, according to a Consumer Reports study. The consumer watchdog publication ran a battery of tests on the 2007 Chevy Tahoe flexible-fuel vehicle, which can run on either E85 -- a mixture consisting of 85% ethanol -- or gasoline, and found that the SUV's mileage dropped from 14 mpg to 10 mpg on E85.
The decline could be expected in any flex-fuel vehicle, the report said, because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline.
So the already expensive fill-up gets even more painful. With E85 costing an average of $2.91 in August, the fuel-economy penalty means drivers are essentially paying almost $4 for the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline, the report said.
Another way of looking at it: Consumer Reports found that the Tahoe's driving range decreased to 300 miles on a full tank from 440 on gasoline -- more trips to the pump, if drivers can even find a pump.
Of the 176,000 gas stations in the country, only about 800 sell E85. As it stands now, most people can't realistically use those pumps because they're primarily located in Midwest corn country, where the ethanol is produced. Reasons for the scarcity range from stricter regulations in some states to difficulty in shipping the fuel.
Of the 176,000 gas stations in the country, only about 800 sell E85. As it stands now, most people can't realistically use those pumps because they're primarily located in Midwest corn country, where the ethanol is produced. Reasons for the scarcity range from stricter regulations in some states to difficulty in shipping the fuel.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...ations_hi.html
Some sources quoting 'nearly 1200'
http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.htm
Some 'over 1200' as of may 2007
http://www.e85fuel.com/news/050707_1...ns_release.htm
True, much of it is located in the mid-west, but much of the mid west supply also comes in 15-20% less per gallon than gasoline, so that helps offset some, if not all of the mpg pinch (ie - miles per dollar spent are almost equivalent)
But Ron Lamberty, the head of market development at the American Coalition for Ethanol, said there's much more to the story than just saving a few bucks.
"If you're concerned about emissions, you should use E85," he said. "If you want to make sure the money you spend is circulated through the American economy rather than some South American or Middle Eastern country, the choice is E85."
"If you're concerned about emissions, you should use E85," he said. "If you want to make sure the money you spend is circulated through the American economy rather than some South American or Middle Eastern country, the choice is E85."
Even the assertion that ethanol is costlier isn't necessarily true in the long run, he pointed out.
For one thing, lower BTU in ethanol means less heat, which translates to longer engine life, he explained. Also, if converting current pumps was allowed, it would take only a couple months before the alternative fuel was available from coast to coast.
"If you're buying a flex-fuel vehicle for the cheapest fuel, you can have the cheapest fuel," he said. "When gas is cheaper, you can use gas, and when E85 is cheaper, you can use that."
For one thing, lower BTU in ethanol means less heat, which translates to longer engine life, he explained. Also, if converting current pumps was allowed, it would take only a couple months before the alternative fuel was available from coast to coast.
"If you're buying a flex-fuel vehicle for the cheapest fuel, you can have the cheapest fuel," he said. "When gas is cheaper, you can use gas, and when E85 is cheaper, you can use that."
One of the primary motivations for the build-out of ethanol is that it will ease the nation's dependence on oil from the Middle East and help the U.S. move away from sucking up nonrenewable resources. But there's a wrinkle in that logic.
Despite the difficulty of finding E85 pumps, the Big Three have built more than 5 million flex-fuel vehicles since the late 1990, with that number increasing by about 1 million this year, Consumer Reports forecast.
The government credits vehicles that can run on E85 with about two-thirds more fuel economy than they actually get using gasoline, even though they may never run on E85. For example, the two-wheel drive version of the Tahoe used in the study would normally be rated at 21 mpg. But because it can run on E85, it earns a 35 mpg credit.
The government credits vehicles that can run on E85 with about two-thirds more fuel economy than they actually get using gasoline, even though they may never run on E85. For example, the two-wheel drive version of the Tahoe used in the study would normally be rated at 21 mpg. But because it can run on E85, it earns a 35 mpg credit.
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A couple people here at work use E-85. One has a Chevy Impala dropped from 31 mpg to 28 mpg. Another has a Ford SUV and only lost about 2 mpg average. They both calculated cost vs. mileage and at the time E-85 was cheaper by a few cents per mile vs. gas. I am sure every vehicle is different but if you have the chance it wouldn't hurt to try it.
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Originally Posted by rusty70f100
Exactly. That article has been quoted innumerable times by ethanol critics everywhere.
Every vehicle is different. The only way to know how E85 will work in your vehicle is to try it.
Every vehicle is different. The only way to know how E85 will work in your vehicle is to try it.
My last car fill up, premium was near $3.49 while E85 was $2.79...substantial savings even with a slight loss in MPG.
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My last car fill up, premium was near $3.49 while E85 was $2.79...substantial savings even with a slight loss in MPG. A 29% REDUCTION in MPG (with ethanol) would equate to about a price of $3.59. For those doubters even a 19% efficiency loss would amount to $3.32 price. Where are these "substantial savings" you're referring to? A "slight loss" in MPG you say? If one has 3K acres of corn in the ground I'd understand their bias towards this stuff, however..........
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Oil Above $67 on Gas Supply Concerns
By JOHN WILEN, AP Business Writer
1 HOUR AGO
NEW YORK - Domestic crude oil swept above $67 a barrel Thursday on continuing concerns the refining industry is not producing enough gasoline to meet summer driving demand.
By JOHN WILEN, AP Business Writer
1 HOUR AGO
NEW YORK - Domestic crude oil swept above $67 a barrel Thursday on continuing concerns the refining industry is not producing enough gasoline to meet summer driving demand.
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Postmaster
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From: Marion, VA
With government assistance and tax breaks for ethanol, how much are we taxpayers paying for each gallon of E85 used in addition to what the vehicle driver pays?
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I beg your pardon, for here are the latest tax ethanol subsidy numbers: Subsidies for corn ethanol
Corn ethanol subsidies totaled $7.0 billion in 2006 for 4.9 billion gallons of ethanol. That's $1.50 per gallon.
Even with high gas prices in 2006, producing a gallon of ethanol cost 38¢ more than making gasoline with the same energy, so ethanol did need part of that subsidy. But what about the other $1.12. Not needed! So all of that became, $5.4 billion windfall of profits paid to real farmers, corporate farmers, and ethanol makers like multinational ADM.
Corn ethanol subsidies totaled $7.0 billion in 2006 for 4.9 billion gallons of ethanol. That's $1.50 per gallon.
Even with high gas prices in 2006, producing a gallon of ethanol cost 38¢ more than making gasoline with the same energy, so ethanol did need part of that subsidy. But what about the other $1.12. Not needed! So all of that became, $5.4 billion windfall of profits paid to real farmers, corporate farmers, and ethanol makers like multinational ADM.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Blue Hill Township
The loss of fuel economy depends primarily on the tune of the vehicle. Factory flex fuel tunes are "safe" so as to now grenade the motor. This means that the tune is set to be richer to encompass all the variations out there in manufacturing of the vehicle as well as fuel. Some of the people working with E85 conversions have limited the loss of mileage to 9% rather than the typical 20% or so.
Another consideration is the octane rating of E85. E85 has an octane rating of 104. It is quite popular with the performance community because it is cheaper than race gas but provides many of the same benefits.
Another consideration is the octane rating of E85. E85 has an octane rating of 104. It is quite popular with the performance community because it is cheaper than race gas but provides many of the same benefits.
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I think what a lot of people don't think about when it comes to ethanol is the amount of water it takes to produce ethanol. I read that it takes 3 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of ethanol. If they build a ethanol plant in Tampa Fl. It will use anywhere from 300 to 500 thousand gallons of water a day.
Just food for thought.
Just food for thought.
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From: Iowa
Originally Posted by TOMHONE
how much are we taxpayers paying for each gallon of E85 used in addition to what the vehicle driver pays? I believe it's around $1.75 per GALLON. Unbelievable but true.
