Want to poll the group here. I have a 1970 Ranger Shortbed with 302, 3 speed on the column. I know the 302 is milding lacking (lol) of power on the trucks from those years. I want the groups recommendation on what motor to run, preferably big block. Someone said 351 Cleveland or 429. But I don't know the difference.

I am a techie guy but I don't know motors. I know the difference between big block and small block but not sure of the benefits and drawbacks of each motor. Your recommendations are appreciated.

Thanks again

 

The 351 Cleveland was a short lived experiment in the early 70s. They were produced for only a few years. Then FoMoCo came out with 351/400M engines, another short lived experiment which was finished by the late 70s.

A 429 is a member of 385 series FoMoCo engines which came out in 1968 as the C9VE 429 & 460 engines. The family includes 377, 429, & 460 CID engines. 429 & 460 share the same block so 460s are a stroker version of a 429. These engines were produced throught the late 1990s. 460s even appeared with EFI systems after the mid 80s.

They are durable, good performing low RPM X Huge Torque Engines. Set up correctly with the right gears, exhaust, carb or EFI 17mpg is very average, set up wrong tho' the milage can be 1/2 of that. . . . Most guys set them up wrong I will Add. An avg lifespan for a maintained 429-460 is right at 200,000 without trouble, if it has the roller chain timing gear set up & breakerless electronic Ignition.

They work well with a C-6 A/T or a manual, although IMHO a P-Car Manual is not up to the task of the 385 series torque output. If you're into it, there are other trannies that can be used.

OEM parts can be used to install the 385s in 1965 through mid 1990s F Series trucks. Mine sits on OEM FoMoCo engine brackets, Insulators & frame stands along with an OEM rear tranny X member & tranny Mount. I run truck/ F-Series exhaust manifolds to get the correct exhaust system back pressure for optimum performance overall.

Obviously I chose 385 series engines over the rest, and have influenced others to do the same. I like the effortless power, and huge torque on demand. I will therefore continue using these great engines. I would add. . . .if you plan to "hammer" on a 385 engine, invest in a 31 spline Ford 9" rear axle assy & set up. If you do not "hammer" on your engines you will otherwise be fine with the right ratio 28 spline 9". The late model Dana rears in the 80s up F-150 do not tolerate 385 engines very long, niether do the later model manual 5spd, OD, trannies, or light duty AOD- A/Ts. . .

Oh my street built 460 runs mid 12s in a 66 SWB F-100 @ 1/4 mi. It doesn't seem to mind or "break" from that sort of occassional use. Also "Brand Xers" HATE me! . .

FBp

 

One more thing....
Big Block & Small Block are a Blow Tie & MoPaR Concept. FoMoCo talks in terns of series or engine "families".
FBp

 

You ever consider the FE series of engines? The 360/390 was stock for those years, and worked well.

You didn't say if you had power steering - if you don't going with either the FE or the 385 will add a lot of weight to your front end, and that will be another mod you will need to consider.

I also would not reject the engine you have - with the right parts it might surprise you! With the price of gas I chose a 302 for my project, which will be a daily driver.

Everybody has their favorite engine, I suggest you read the engine forums for the FE, 385, 351/400M, and the 302/351C.

 

Can I ask that you elaborate on what your intentions are with the truck... We can recommend and spend (your money of course) quite easily, but if there is a specific direction you plan to take, let us help you get there straight out. Just out of the gate, if you stick with the same series engine as your 302 (Windsor), go with a 351w, you can drop it right in and go, plenty of aftermarket parts to add on as well with the money saved from not swapping everything else too. Will you want to swap out the tranny and get away from the column shift? Do you want to go stick or automatic?

--Mike

 

I am a huge lover of 352 360 390. And I would heavily suggest them. But I guess I agree with Mike G. stick with the series you got. If you are power hungry upgrade to the Windsor.

 

There is plenty more to be said about the 351 Clevelands. First is that they will get much better gas mileage than the larger engines like 429s and 460s. If top speed is a main goal and money is not important then sure go for the big cubic inches and play.

Now for more power on a more money concious level you can swap in a decently built 302 with a few mods and get decent power. You will continue to smile much longer because your gas mileage will not have fallen to single digits like it will with a 429 or 460 may get you.

Dont overlook a 351 Windsors and 351 Clevelands because both will bolt directly to your current transmission. You must pay attention to the flexplate or flywheel balance issues or you may have end up with a vibration. Keeping things balanced is not a big deal like swapping to other engine families. But you need to get the flexplate, flywheels and or harmonic balancers to eleminate the problem.

I can honestly say that I personally have gotten very decent power out of both 302s and 351 Clevelands. No, they weren't used as drag engines and I didn't need to worry about the rear end breaking or wearing out my transmission either. If you aren't familiar with the large amount of horsepower the larger series engines can produce then you also aren't familiar with dumping large amounts of money into a daily driver truck either. But if you do go with one , you will become familiar with all of it.

If you are more budget oriented and don't want to take a hit everytime you need to get gas then stay with a smaller series engine like a windsor. You can use 1974 351 windsor heads with larger valves (which do have hardened valve seats for unleaded) on a 302 and also use a 4V intake and 650 cfm carb and it will wake up you sleepy 302. If you also use headers dual exhaust and a mild cam along with this you will allow this engine to breathe.

With the above setup I would expect that you can get ok gas mileage probably around 18 to 22 depending on your overall truck condition and driving habits.

 

It most certainly will not be a daily driver. I like the three on the tree and want to keep it like that. The motor and tranny need to be rebuilt or replaced. I know where there is a 429 with tranny for 600.

Besides that, I want the best combination of power and common sense. I don't need a drag truck. But I would like a little go under the hood. I also don't want something that gets 5 mpg and needs to be worked on more than driven. No power steering.

The most I would get in it would be pissing off the local rice burners at the stop light. I would lean more with dependability with great performane for the money.

Which sounds like the Cleveland???

 

Or Windsor?

 

351 Clevelands will not create as much heat from friction on the main crankshaft journals, thus better for less heat buildup in the oil. I have two 351Cs and have run both in a heavy 1972 Gran Torino. The rear gear is 2.73:1 with a C4. They are both 2V versions, yet have decent power levels especially with a mild cam. A 4V intake and carburetor will be better, but I kept the original 2V because of original appearance mostly.

I don't think just any 351C will be great in a truck or just street driving in general. There are the 4V head Clevelands which have huge valves and ports. You have to wind these up a bit to begin getting the power they are capable of. Not good for stoplight racing unless you have have a really low geared rearend and there goes your gas mileage.

I have toyed with the idea of using a 2V version 351C with a 4V intake and carb in my 1976 F100. This would be in order to gain better gas mileage and still have good performance. My 428 powered truck is fun, but it lacks top end performance and gas mileage is terrible at 9-12 mpg.

Any way you look at it, all swaps bring their own gains and losses. You'll just have to decide what you're willing to lose in order to gain somewhere else. Swapping in a 351C will gain gas mileage but it'll never have the low end torque the 428 is capable of without losing some money. Yes, I am willing to give up the low end torque to have a wider range of performance and have better overall gas mileage around 18-20 or maybe better.

Of course, someone else may have a different opinion.

 

FE is also a bolt in with a bellhousing change. The frame stands are the same. I'm not a fan of the 385 series engines and have yet to seen one break 150,000 miles in one piece. I think 200,000 miles is a little unrealistic, but that's my experience. I've had 2 390's go well over 250,000 with just replacing the timing chains. I used the crank out of one of them in my new 390 without even turning it, just a polish and was perfect spec.

Depends on your own preferences, but I think windsors and cleveland engine's belong in cars and the only way to move a truck down the road is with big inches. The 429/460 guys will always slam the FE guys for having a dinosaur of an engine, but the old FE's definitely hold thier own. An FE will cost more to make big power, but they will hold up. They also weigh a couple hundred pounds less than a 429/460 which can make a big difference if you're going for off the line performance in a pickup truck. I like to see an FE under the hood of a car or truck that's period correct for it. I've never weighed one myself, but an FE with an aluminum intake is said to be the same weight as a comparable 351W.

Just my 2 cents, not trying to start a 385 VS FE battle.

 

Oh yeah! I love those FEs too! Much better truck engines when hauling and towing.

 

Hmmmm....351 for the gas mileage......460 for the torque....why not just meet 1/2 way and opt for the 390.....*grin*

 

My 1970's 390 got 14-15 MPG freeway with a carb and 4 speed. With the 5 speed and EFI I average about 16-17. That's around town and country road mileage now, haven't checked this setup on the freeway yet, but I'd guess 18 or so cruising 1900 rpm @ 70. With the EFI I can tow 15K easily and still break 10 MPG. Not sure a new powerstroke or cummins can do that.

FE muscle has a pretty good showing at the local strip as well.

 

So I am back where I started, confused as ....., well you know.

Since I have to replace motor and tranny, I guess it eliminates the bolt on issues. I appreciate you guys thoughts, I will figure out something that fits my truck and my budget.