M5OD 3/4 shift rail issue
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From: Phoenix
M5OD 3/4 shift rail issue
Got a rebuilt M5OD and after installing in the 93 Explorer I noticed the 3/4 shift rail does not stop when you put it in 3rd or 4th. The stick shift will move up and hit the dash or down and hit the center floor counsel. So the shift fork is getting pushed a little further than it is supposed to in either direction. 1/2 rail is fine. 3/4 will stay where it is supposed to, wont pop out of gear. I can feel a slight resistance where maybe the detent ball might be resting in it's limit hole but with little effort I can push it past that point. Seems like maybe the spring pushing on the detent was left out.
Anyone know if this condition is dangerous? Can the shift fork get pushed past where it should be a hit a gear or ruin the synchros? Rebuild shop, the owner, told me it can't cause a problem...second opinions?
Anyone know if this condition is dangerous? Can the shift fork get pushed past where it should be a hit a gear or ruin the synchros? Rebuild shop, the owner, told me it can't cause a problem...second opinions?
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If the detent ball and spring weren't needed why would they be put in? If you go for the classic power shift into 3rd and slam into the dash you can easily slide the synchro ring all the way into the gear and after a while this will eat up the tranny.
Cargo Master
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From: Saint Augustine, FL
The detent ball and springs will not cause this problem. Even if they were left out the slider and fork would bottom out on the gear and stop long before it hit the dash and console.
Off the top of my head the things that come to mind first are: the fork may be worn out and allowing too much movement in the slider, the fork or dog are not securely bolted to the shift rail, it may have the wrong slider or fork in it.
The only way to know is to pull the cover and take a look.
Steve
'95 Clubwagon XLT
Off the top of my head the things that come to mind first are: the fork may be worn out and allowing too much movement in the slider, the fork or dog are not securely bolted to the shift rail, it may have the wrong slider or fork in it.
The only way to know is to pull the cover and take a look.
Steve
'95 Clubwagon XLT
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From: Phoenix
Thanks Steve. That means pulling the damn tranny out. I did look at the shift forks before I installed it. One looked new, no wear on the tips. The other looked like it was machined - flat on both sides, all 4 sides I guess. Do you think the "machined" looking area was actually wear? The slider rotates while the shift fork doesn't so it makes sense that wear can be an issue. I didn't even think to measure or compoare the two. The one that was not "machined" looking looked like cast aluminum, kind of bead blasted. What do you make of this?
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From: Phoenix
Wicky - I'm not talking about forcing the stick. I can move it to hit the dash with my little pinky. It shifts normal and I can feel where it is supposed to stop but it easily moves past this - both directions 3rd and 4th. I tried forcing 1st and 2nd and I mean I pushed on it hard and it didn't budge past where it's supposed to go.
I'm taking the strick out tomorrow to change the sound dampening boot that is all ripped to shreads - thanks Ford dealers - and I'll measure the lever arms and find out how much further the bottom end of the stick is really moving. I think there was about 1/8 inch from the slider to the gear once in gear so if it's moving less than that I guess I'm safe. I f anyone's got one of these trannys sitting on the work bench and could actually measure the slider to gear clearance I'd really like to know that number.
I'm taking the strick out tomorrow to change the sound dampening boot that is all ripped to shreads - thanks Ford dealers - and I'll measure the lever arms and find out how much further the bottom end of the stick is really moving. I think there was about 1/8 inch from the slider to the gear once in gear so if it's moving less than that I guess I'm safe. I f anyone's got one of these trannys sitting on the work bench and could actually measure the slider to gear clearance I'd really like to know that number.
Cargo Master
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From: Saint Augustine, FL
Originally Posted by Jharger
One looked new, no wear on the tips. The other looked like it was machined - flat on both sides, all 4 sides I guess. Do you think the "machined" looking area was actually wear?
If its been bead blasted, it may be someone trying to "recondition" a worn out fork. Or maybe they didn't know what the heck they were doing.
Oh, and as long as you are pulling the shifter, check the socket and its motion to ensure that the problem isn't there.
Steve
'95 Clubwagon XLT
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From: Phoenix
Steve - no plastic fork sleeeves on this that I can tell. My old one didn't and the rebuilt does not. One of the reasons for pulling the shifter out again is to put a new plastic bush on the top of the shift ball. The dealers had the tranny out at leat 3 times under warranty and they at least once did not align the plastic bushing and it was cracked when I pulled it out. There is an outside chance that the excess motion I am getting is because of this busshing condition...but I really don't think so.
I'm so pissed at this thing right now I can't even think straight. Maybe I'll demand this rebuilder give me a new one and ZF at that point.
I'm so pissed at this thing right now I can't even think straight. Maybe I'll demand this rebuilder give me a new one and ZF at that point.
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The M5OD didn't have the nylon inserts on the end. The surface should look like bead blasted cast iron. On the tips it should not be shiny new looking, this will indicate wear. Another good way to tell is to look at the fork from what would be the bottom, lay the top cover with the shift rails on the table, forks up. The tips should be the same thickness from the inside to the outside of the casting, both forks should be the same thickness. I was saying that if you were to do the classic power shift you would easily slam the synchro into the gear, not saying that you do. If you bottom the synchro out on the gear enough times you will cause damage. And if the synchro ring goes too far you can either pop the inserts out, causing a big problem or possibly break them sending them through the gear teeth.
Cargo Master
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Saint Augustine, FL
Yeah, I couldn't remember if it had inserts or not. Compare the two forks, the thickness at the tips should be about the same. You can also measure the width of the grove in the slider and compare it to the thickness of the fork to see how much wear it has.
Steve
'95 Clubwagon XLT
Steve
'95 Clubwagon XLT
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From: Phoenix
OK then. Sounds like it's comming back out then. Sxxx! The one fork was definitely different as I said it looked like it was machined. When I had it apart, I do recall the center shift rail - the one in question, would move towards 3rd gear untill the end of the steel rail hit the actual cover, i.e. it didn't stop like the other 2 did. At the time I was adding extra grease to it for lubrication - just figured why not while it was open.
OK. I'm off to pull the stick and change the ball bushings and the rubber sound dampner. Anyone know how that is supposed to come apart? When I looked at it 2 weeks ago, it looks like the stick is pressed on and then horozontally pinned to the ball stud. I was going to drill out the pin and then go from there.
OK. I'm off to pull the stick and change the ball bushings and the rubber sound dampner. Anyone know how that is supposed to come apart? When I looked at it 2 weeks ago, it looks like the stick is pressed on and then horozontally pinned to the ball stud. I was going to drill out the pin and then go from there.
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From: Phoenix
Pretty easy once you take it apart once. The ball stub coming out of the transmission is held to the stick with a wedge. That stud with a nut on one side is the wedge. Put the nut on the othere side and wrench the wedge out and the stick comes right out the ball stub. Then the rubber sound insulator, 3 hole cover and plastic bushing all come right off. Much easier to put it all back on with the ball stud and stick not together untill the next to last step, last being screwing the shift boot back down on the floor. The pin I saw in the assembly is just so the ball stud and stick can only go together one way.
After new bushing in place, stick still moves too far in 3/4 gears so I'm going to have to pull it now.
After new bushing in place, stick still moves too far in 3/4 gears so I'm going to have to pull it now.
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From: Phoenix
So is it possibly that the end of the shift ball, the end of the bottom arm, can go to the end of it's travel and then go further but not move the shift rail any further? This would mean the end of the stick inside the tranny would slide past the fulcrum of the shift rail itself and then just slop around in the breeze, so to speak.
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From: Phoenix
Steve - Clubwagon - did you understand my last post? If for some reason my shift stub inside the tranny is too short, can it disengage from the shift rail assembly so that the shift rail stops but the end of the shift stub rotates up and over the top of the shift rail assembly, or push bar?
Cargo Master
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Saint Augustine, FL
J, I think I understand what you are describing. Yes, it could certainly do that if the shifter was missmatched. You said you installed a rebuilt transmission right? Well, I wonder if there was a difference somewhere along the line in the shifter and its cup?
I wish I had an M50D on the bench so I could look at one. I bet I could figure it out if I had one to look at.
Steve
'95 Clubwagon XLT
I wish I had an M50D on the bench so I could look at one. I bet I could figure it out if I had one to look at.
Steve
'95 Clubwagon XLT