Great post. The original Toronado was a rolling test bed for GM to aquire some real-world FWD experience. Although the car seems huge today, a 119" wheelbase made the Toronados and Eldorados more mid-size in their time (a full-size '98 had a 125" WB).

 

[QUOTE=farmtwuck]I owned 2 different cavaliers when I was in High school. And I also had a Dodge Omni that I drove through college before I joined the Army. Now, the Omni did really well in the snow. But it was just not as perdictable as the LTD or Lincoln. And when my wife and I got married, she had a 2000 olds cutlass. I drove that for part of one winter, and we traded it in on the Expedition. Once again, not too bad in the snow, but if you are used to RWD it's hard to accept it when your steering wheels just happen to lose traction because they are also your drive wheels. Scary.

 

Armorer, you made a good point. That same old people that loved finally having FWD complain about every car being the same these days. My parent's last 3 cars are so generic, that you cannot go through a large parking lot without seeing a car that is at least the same color and bodystyle. Now days, the people who want some style in the family ride buy a pickup or SUV. Hopefully, the new impala or the Chryslers on the RWD frame will change this.

 

By the way, I would not be opposed to owning an efficient FWD. In fact I want one. But they do not now, nor will they ever stir my soul. That's what my Galaxie is for. But I'm in a position now where I don't own a single vehicle that gets better than 16mpg. That's no place to be when gas prices are this way. So, I'll sell my soul for awhile to save some dough. I'm passionate about automobiles, but not stupid!

 

I am just glad that I am not driving my Dodge right now. I think that diesel has went down, but it is still at least $.50 more than gas. Up to 27 mpgs and $2.30/gallon in my parent's old Lumina beats 14-16 mpg and $3.00/gallon.

Since we are on the topic, my Dodge is probably one of the worst outfits on ice, snow, or pretty much anything slick. Street tires, no weight on the back, and a Cummins in the front makes for a bad combination. I have only had it for about a year, and last winter was open, so I have yet to find out just how much of a pain it can really be. Luckily, though, I have 4X4 if it gets too bad.

 

The difference between 4x4 and FWD?? Why would you even ask that? I mean this in a friendly way, but there are HUGE differences. Driver skill of course will ALWAYS be the determining factor, and there is no qwuestion that a FWD car, generally has better snow driving characteristics, but 4x4, and FWD are completely different. With 4x4, you have 4 tires turning, and applying force to the road, whereas FWD is only turning 2 tires. A 4x4 pickup, engaged in 4x4 will have all the weight over the front axle being used, with the extra directional stability from the rear. A FWD will only have the front wheels applying force, which is less effective.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I love driving in the snow. If you gain experience in winter driving, RWD is easily on par with FWD. It's not that hard to control when out of control either, as someone else mentioned, you start losing control, let of the gas, and correct, you'll be fine.

 

Yeah, the 4X4 and FWD are much the same, except that the rear gives the front help. A 4X4 will probably get considerably farther before traction is lost, but as far as the way that they drive, there is no way that it can be much different. The rear of a FWD does not usually have any stability issues, so like I said it doesn't hurt or help much. If you disagree, just go to a empty parking lot the is covered with ice. It is nearly impossible to get the car to spin a cookie (at least without locking the e-brake). Ther front of the car will get pulled around when you give er the onion (thus illustrating another point that I was trying to make), but the back will stay put. Now turn the car around and do it in reverse. It'll whip a good cookie now. It might even still be a little more stable than a RWD is doin' the doughnuts. Go ahead and laugh at my way of explaining this, but keep in mind that people advice beginners to go to a parking lot to get used to their outfit and how it drives before going out onto the street.

The frontend of a 4X4 will not be quite as effective as the FWD, because there is much more weight on the rear of the vehicle, which helps the rear axle with traction. The point that I was trying to make is that if a FWD has all of these drivability issues that some think it does, then a 4X4 would too.

 

...I have seriously never ever heard anyone use that as a metaphor for hitting the gas
Exactly what I'm saying...the way they drive is different as well.
No, I won't laugh, I'll use it to prove my point. Your scenario was valid, but you're not realizing something. The rear end using power, versus not recieving power makes a HUGE difference.
Ok, I want you to try this. Go into an icy empty parking lot with a 4x4 PU, and a FWD car. Put the truck in 4 hi, and drive in a circle. Now get in the FWD car and do the same thing. There is a major difference between the two. You can feel the force being applied by the rear end, assisting in the moving of the vehicle. The FWD car can move, but it just doesn't have the tractional values that a 4x4 truck would have. 4 tires will ALWAYS be more effective then just 2.
I don't get what you're saying here. The front end on the 4x4 will be very effective, due to the weight over the front axle. Not only that, but the rear is helping to push the vehicle, while the front is pulling.
If you took a FWD car ( I have ) and tried to turn it sharply while in an icy parking lot already moving forward, you WILL keep moving forward. A truck engaged in 4x4 will have a much easier time turning with all 4 tires assisting the stability of the truck.

 

The entire parking lot thing was more of a illustration of the rear end of a FWD having no signifigant effect on its driveability. I should also add that IMO as well as yours, a 4X4 is better in the snow and of the ice. The way that I have been trying to describe things, you might get a different idea. I was trying to point out that the driveability of the two will be similar. Of course, a 4X4 will be easier to drive. Let the soccer mom who gets her H2 or whatever out of the driveway, down a mile or so of city streets and finally 5 miles down the interstate before realizing that it might be a little slick be proof of this. Even when I was driving my FWD to HS in my younger years, I sometimes did not know that it was slick until I tried to stop or take a corner. With a RWD, I knew right away. Hey, there might be a safety advantage to RWD after all.

I used to be stumped by the inability at times to take a sharp corner with a FWD. Then I gave it the gas, and I figured it out. A 4X4 will do the same thing, but as you said, the rear wheels will help. A 4X4 will probably turn more quickly in this situation also.

 

FWIW, the absolute best snow vehicle I've ever driven (that wasn't a 4X4) was a VW Bug. Best friend had one in the Swiss Alps, and we put two winters down with that thing- skinny snow tires, weight on top of the drive wheels, and no weight transfer issues when you're going up a steep hill. Not a lot of power either- not necessarily a bad thing when driving in snow. I had a Volvo with studded snow that did really well too- tall, skinny tires, gutless, but good weight distribution and easy to modulate brakes.

My only crash in the snow involved a Chevy Citation (FWD) and a snowbank at the end of a hairpin. I strongly suspect a few brandies up at Timberline Lodge might have had a hand in that though.

re: parking lots. That's how I taught the wife and son about snow driving- HS parking lot. Great stuff.

re: 4X4 pickups. Yeah, they'll go fine, but that light tail end (unloaded) can cause some real directional stability issues when going straight ahead. Or trying to go straight ahead. Ahem. The Suburban never tried to get sideways when changing lanes, but you always had to watch that closely on the pickup. I suspect the extra 1500 lbs on top of the rear wheels had something to do with that- pickups are very unbalanced unloaded.

 

[QUOTE=MJD]

The frontend of a 4X4 will not be quite as effective as the FWD, because there is much more weight on the rear of the vehicle, which helps the rear axle with traction. QUOTE]

This probably has no noticeable effect on the way that a 4X4 drives, when compared to a FWD, but for some reason I mentioned it. What I was trying to say is that a 4X4 has a lower weight distribution ratio on the front of the vehicle. Think of it this way. If you take off the rear drive shaft, the once-4X4 outfit now has less of an advantage than a FWD, because it still has to pull a heavy axle & driveshaft, and that weight is not sitting on the drivers. This probably has a negligable effect, considering that the rear axle will be there to help push, and will trump any effect that this might have. A 2wd versus a 4X4 in 2wd creates a similar situation. The rears of the 4X4 will have less traction, because they have to push the front axle, t-case, and such to push around.

 

My mom had a VW bug back in the day. My dad had a 69 or so Ford 4x4 pickup, and the bug could get farther than it could off road. Those old ones are an awesome little outfit for offroading. My dad has an old Spray coupe with a VW engine. I think that it would be cool to find an old bug with a bad engine and make it into a baja beetle. I do not think that I would ever drive it on-road, as I think that they look kinda dumb, but it would be fun.

 

The only advantage of FWD is better snow traction and more cabin room because no tunnel for driveshaft. The downside is worse handling, torque steer, easier to break. I'll take RWD any day.

 

I don't know, FWD is pretty tough. RWD is probably more tough due to simplicity, but considering that FWD can stand up to alot, it probably makes no difference. The best car that you can get to off road with and beat the heck out of would be a FWD with a 4cyl and a stick. One friend bought a FWD station wagon for a baja outfit. They couldn't manage to break it, no matter what they did. Of course, they did not do anything to intentionally kill it, but they had no interest in being easy on it either. Actually, a tranny went on it after all of the fluid was drained. Someone drove over a parking stop and a line got broke. It was a fun car and I wish that I could have went for a few 40 mph rides down a logging trail in it. My friend's cousin wrecked another car, so his mother made him haul out the wagon.

 

There will not be a significant effect on driveability in a FWD car because of the rear end, but there is no comparison between that and a 4x4 truck.
Some people may find it harder to control a RWD car in the winter...but if you have enough skill, it's manageable, and in some cases, even easier. That's not to say that there isn't a huge difference in driving characteristics between FWD and RWD cars on ice and snow. I think it comes down to personal preference nowadays.