MRXLH,

Will this be enough to convince you NOT to use Fram oil filters????

 

Hope this isn't to far OT. How do you guy's cut open a used filter? I have a Purolator that I took off of my last 10k OCI with M1EP. I want to see what it looks like but am not sure how to open it up with out getting metal filings everywhere.

Thanks - Brad

 

Interesting...

Probably won't change my mind, but I do give weight to Flash's opinions about this stuff.

brad, you can buy a device made for cutting filters open, or use a hack saw, grinder or Dremel.

 

Now see, this is what I am looking for. Not I saw a picture on BITOG and read his report, so it must be true, or I had a fram filter on and I could hear it drystart everytime. If I used the logic that some are using in this forum for coming to a decision, well then the quality of the PSD 6.0 could be ranked right up there with the fram filters that everyone is scared of. I may stop by the HD shop this weekend and get a filter and cut it open for all that are impressed so much by the photos of them. I will also get a OEM motorcraft filter, and a Fram and dispell the rumor that the 6.0 filter is different, which some from this forum have caimed is true, even came all the way up the the 6.0 forum to talk about something they know nothing about.

Ryan

 

SNIP [QUOTE=pcmenten]I'm sure you guys are going to have the last word, that's the beauty of the internet. But there have been many reports of; dry starts due to bad drainback, filter media disintegration leading to engine failure, burst filter cases, and more. Somebody did a comparison of filters and found that Fram's were the worst. He was harrassed by Allied Signal and was made to take his web site down. QUOTE] SNIP

I think you are wrong about this.

Russ Knize did several filter comparisons a few years ago and I think it was Autozone that caused Russ the problems.

The following is a quote from Russ and a link to the sight that has more information.

Why was this page taken off the web for a while?

"On 8/11/99, I received a rather threatening letter from a corporate lawyer for an automotive parts retailer (not an oil filter manufacturer) threatening legal action if I did not take the page down within 7 day (they cannot make such a demand via unregistered mail and have it mean anything). Suprisingly, this was not in regards to Allied-Signal manufactured oil filters. It was in regards to Champion Laboratories manufactured filters. I requested that the retailer send me the information from the manufacturer that caused them to *demand* that the page be removed from my site. Since the lawer had no apparent knowledge on the subject, I did not try to reason with her. I do not have the resources to take the battle to court, even though I am well within my rights, so I opted to take it down in that form in good faith. I have since updated the page so that it now only carries the hard data that I aquired, and what I saw while doing it (which is backed up by the pictures). I removed most of my opinionated comments as well as any data that came from the manufacturer (SAE numbers). Thanks to all those that sympathized with my problems.
I received the document from the oil filter retailer on 8/16/99, which was originally from a quality engineer at Champion Laboratories. It was obviously in response to a query the retailer had made to Champion Labs in regards to my web page. The document made some very valid points, which I took to heart. They were concerned because even though they sell several brands of oil filters, they are almost all made by Champion Labs. What really annoys me is that rather than work with me on the issues presented in the letter, they simply chose to demand I take the entire thing down. I am always open to input, but I don't respond favoribly to blind threats. I will not reveal the name of the company that threatened me unless they decide to do it again. This is for their own sake and not mine."

http://www.241computers.com/ford/Con...s20-67-63.html

 

You would have to do a usenet search to get the original information. I can assure you that a former Allied Signal oil filter engineer went public with his concerns about quality and was harrased into silence.

I'm not convinced that the minimopar site was the source of the original study, but I do recall that Fram/Allied Signal was involved in trying to silence this study.

Regardless, why don't you actually look at the oil filter study sites and see what we're talking about - Fram filters are inferior in construction, materials, filtering media size. Quoting an old Fram oil filter commercial, 'you can pay me now, or you can pay me later'; in other words buy a good oil filter now and pay a little more now, or buy a cheap oil filter and pay rebuild your engine later.

If I'm going to crawl under my car, get dirty and change the oil, I'm not going to waste my time using inferior parts. Purolator PureOne oil filters are reasonably priced at Fred Meyer. Mobil1 oil in 5 quart jugs can be found at WalMart. Do it once, and do it right.

I buy my cars used, and with simple maintenance they run better as I drive them. At this point my MBG is really starting to sound good with 135k miles. When I got it, it stalled and had a hard time passing emissions. I use good spark plugs(Bosch) , good oil (Valvoline MaxLife and Mobil1), and a good oil filter (Mobil1).

I had an old Toyota Corona with 240k that ran rough when I got it. When I gave it away three years later it was purring. I would drain the Mobil1 out of my Mustang GT and reuse it in the Toyota, and the Toyota loved it. I used a good oil filter on that car (standard Toyota), too.

 

pcmenten,

Can you prove that Frams are made with bad parts?

No,it is your opinion.

I have used Frams in the past,the car that I did so with at last count had around I think 164,000 miles on it.

I got the car at around 84K,it had mostly Fram filters and plain old dino oil after I bought it.

It has NEVER had any major mechanical work done to it under my ownership.

I have read oil filter studies and they are for all intents and purposes,opinions.

You state that the filter material and so forth is inferior,prove it.

The thickness or amount of filtering material doesnt prove the worth of an oil filter.

A filter may have a huge amount of material and be a a bad filter as far as what it will trap.

Another filter may have less material and do a better job of filtering.

Cardboard as an endcap may may or may not be an inferior product.

As was stated before,the filter material is made with paper,it doesnt fall apart.

What we also need to look at is,if a Fram did fail,was it changed when it was supposed to be?

Was it neglected?

Was the correct oil used in the OCI?

Was the correct OCI used?

These are the questions that one needs to ask and know the answers to before they bash a filter.

I am leary of the new Champion E-Core filters and am unsure about using one because of their construction.

The endcaps are in my opinion,worse than Fram.

While Frams endcaps may be cardboard,they are glued quite well.

The endcaps on the E-Cores are what they call,thermally bonded,no glue is used.

Are Frams over priced?

Probably but they are getting the price that they want.

As I stated in a different post,are the Fram failures above what is acceptable for an oil filter?

All filters have a failure rate,is Frams above what is allowed?

 

I like how you compare Champion and Fram filter endcaps.....like you are saying Fram is bad, Champion is worse....

 

How about the opinion of an oil filter engineer? An engineer that works for Fram? An engineer who has concerns about the quality of Fram filters? Not good enough for you? Just his opinion?

Are you saying that all oil filters are the same quality, that there's no difference between oil filters? Can you explain why manufacturers don't source from Allied Signal, why they source from Champion? Why NAPA sources from Wix? Why these oil filters cost more than Fram? Is there no difference between the various Fram oil filters?

 

Here are the shots of an oem HD oil filter, and the shots of a Fram 3682. While the end caps of the Fram are cardboard and thus glued, (wish I would have taken pics 6 years ago when I cut both filters open then) the seam of the filter media of the fram is a metal crimp. The oem HD is glued. (so much for your glue theory being bad on the endcaps) The number of pleats are the same in both, the Fram has more filter media.




Ryan

 

oem HD oil filter, and the shots of a Fram 3682


what are these filters used on? what brand is the other filter?

 

The oem HD filter fits Harley Davidson sportster motorcycles 1984-up.
The Fram 3682 is not supposed to be used for this app, but dimentionally they mount the same. I have used the 3682 on Big Twin Evo's, and Evo Sportsters. HD used to only have 1 filter, then in 99' they changed the crank venting system on the sporty and the regular 1 fits all filters were causing them to puke excessive oil into the intake and drip out the air filter. This filter (Fram 3682) has been run soley on a 93 HD Dyna Wideglide for 108,000 miles. The motor was in great condition when removed in favor of a S&S 124" motor. I ended up with the valves out of 1 head, someone else got the pistons & cylinders, and another motor received the oil pump. I mic inspected all parts and was amazed that a motor running Havoline 20W50, and a Fram 3682 was dimentionally well within all tolerances. Needless to say from that day on I have been sold on them. My rational was that no matter where I was I could afford to change my oil for $9.00. Hence I could afford to change it every 1000 miles, 3 times what you could change using oem filters and oil. As much abuse as an aircooled motor takes in the summer heat in the south, 1000 mile oci made sense to me, as well as the price. 1 oil change using hd stuff is $30, and Hd recomends 2500-3000 mile oci, or did, don't know what they are recomending for the Twin-Cam engine.

Ryan

Ryan

 

This is all still opinion. And since you haven't been able to recreate the "oil filter engineer" story, stop citing that as if it were fact.

Even if there was one "oil filter engineer" that worked for AS that complained about the supposed inferiority of his company's products, that doesn't prove anything. For all you know, if he actually existed maybe he was a disgruntled employee that was passed over for a promotion or something. Since we have no actual information cited with sources, my speculation is as valid as yours.

Oh, and the reason some retailers source from Champion is because they are cheaper.

 

I was aked if all filters are the same.

No.

Some are made better than others.

This doesnt mean that Frams are made worse.

It doesnt mean that Frams are made with inferior parts.

It also doesnt mean that a more expensive filter is better in every situation.

I think that it was on BITOG that someone found a Purolator filter with cardboard endcaps.

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.theautochannel.com/e_about/filters.html

I do prefere to have an endcap glued as opposed to thermally bonded.

Here is the E-mail and the link to it from the supposed Fram employee.

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilter-fram1.txt

"Russell,
I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey.

I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in
an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you
have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's
mouth, as it were.

I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no
quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we
buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely
capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to
bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were
often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not
properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so
tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no
time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for
about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only
difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow capacity. The
paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process
of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range
from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was
just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter
contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM
tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from
time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands
of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread.

I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their
claims are entirely and completely marketing.

If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is
vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination
of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel,
will do the job of filtration to perfection.

Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can
quote me anytime.

[name omitted to protect submitter]"


First,there has to be some type of quality control.

Second,if you notice in the letter,the employee states that he saw designs that barely passed the J806 test,he didnt say that they went to market.

We also dont know if he is really an engineer or if he is a janitor.

Fram,like any other company is going to test products,that doesnt mean that they will be sold to the public.

As far as why this or that filter company makes this or that filter.

It usually goes to the lowest bidder,not who makes the best filter.

An auto manufacturer puts out the word that they need a filter that meets certain specs and the filter companies bid on it.

The lowest bidder usually wins.

Honda has OEM filters made by Fram.

 

"Honda has OEM filters made by Fram"

Ouch, that one hurt, everyone knows hondas don't last.

Ryan