E85 fuel questions
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,600
Likes: 4
From: Iowa
Originally Posted by dinosaurfan
Grclark, you're remembering nitromethane, with the 2.4 factor as compared to gasoline. With methanol, it is just under 2 With pure ethanol, it would be about 1.3. With E85, it would even be less. Ideally, you'll want to jet up 15~20% , and then fine-tune from there. More compression would be a BIG help, like 12 to 1 no problem. This will give you enough thermal efficiency you'll get the same or better liquid miles per gallon as you did on gasoline. But if you bump up to 12 to 1, you can't use regular gasoline anymore. I have three trucks, so I don't care about not being able to use regular anymore, I'll have one set for E85, and one gasoline. Don't know about number three just yet. Ethanol actually has a faster flame speed than gasoline, but it is about 200 degrees colder. What all this ends up meaning is that you will be getting the same distance traveled but you'll only use 2/3rds the BTUs of energy to do it. Other than availability, I can't see any downsides to it. BTW, the 105 rating is about right for the winter blend, which is frequently actually a 70/30 blend. The 85/15 summer stuff is about 109 in R+M/2 DF
Edit: How about have truck #3 be set up as a supercharged methanol high compression drag racer truck? That'd be cool!
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,003
Likes: 2
From: chicago burbs
it's hard to figure jet sizes. as the orifice size increases, flow increases more than you'd expect. it's that Pi thing, and cross section area. two 1/2" id lines do not flow as much as one 1" id line. to make an accurate guesstimate of new jet size you'd have to find the flow volume rates of your current jet sizes, then find the correct jet sizes for the desired increase in flow volume yada yada yada
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,600
Likes: 4
From: Iowa
Well in my Holley book, they specifically say that Holley jets are numbered by flow. There's an entry and exit angle on the hole, and they also vary the length of the orifice. In general, a bigger jet will have a bigger orifice, but often the same orifice size corresponds to up to three different jets. There is a chart in the book, and orifice size is definately not linear with jet size.
Moderator
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,518
Likes: 917
From: Home Base Nebraska
Here is a few things that most people don't understand about ethanol, most of it is made from corn, the corn that it is being made from was feed to cows, now that corn is being brewed to get the ethanol out and then the syrup is sent to the feed lots to be feed to the cows and it's easier for them to eat and digest, before with hole corn or ground corn a lot of it went out the south end of a cow the syrup doesn't. Plus they can even separate other parts of it out for the manufacture of plastics. We get fuel and the cows still get their feed and we get our meat (corn feed). Its a win win anyway you look at it nothing is wasted its all used.
Denny
Denny
Hotshot
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,697
Likes: 3
From: Marengo, Iowa
On the government programs, there certainly is a LOT of land currently out of production due to the low prices on the grain, and there won't be any more fencerow to fencerow than is done now. People that say that apparently do not have any connections to the farming community, because first, there are laws against doing many of the practices mentioned, and second, there is plenty of useable land not being used because the prices of the grain are low enough that it isn't profitable, so the subsidies are better than production. Once the prices are better, then the profit is better than the subsidies. Corn itself is at $2 a bushel right now, not much higher than it ever has been, and that is likely mostly due to lower yields this year with much of the cornbelt under a drought. 20 years ago 100 bushel an acre was considered a high yielding field. Now over 250 an acre is possible and done annually. So how is it going to make a shortage? Not to mention, as stated in the post before, there are more products than JUST ethanol from that same bushel, that are side products that we still need and use.
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,003
Likes: 2
From: chicago burbs
rustyf100, you're right on about the jets. now that i've been reminded, i might go with these new high tech jets from comp cams?
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Cu...ML/396-397.asp
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Cu...ML/396-397.asp
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Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2002
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The gasoline FAQ site gives 2 ethanol octane numbers from section 2 and 4. http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir...line-faq/.html
129 and 102 RON. 107 and 89 MON. That would be 115 and 98 for R+M/2 if I were comparing to pump gas. So what is the correct octane for straight Ethanol?
I only found one place to buy E85 and it's at least 50 miles away. I'd consider running it only if it became much more available.
Even if the jets are rated by flow, I still think you could get a ballpark figure by measuring the jet diameter and a simple calculation. Lets say it measures .056". Take the radius squared, .028 x .028 = .000784. Multiply by 15% or .000784 x 1.15 = .0009016. The square root of .0009016 is .030*** for the new radius. .030 x 2 = .060" for the new jet diameter. Pi is a constant for area so it doesn't need to be used for figuring out a percentage increase.
129 and 102 RON. 107 and 89 MON. That would be 115 and 98 for R+M/2 if I were comparing to pump gas. So what is the correct octane for straight Ethanol?
I only found one place to buy E85 and it's at least 50 miles away. I'd consider running it only if it became much more available.
Even if the jets are rated by flow, I still think you could get a ballpark figure by measuring the jet diameter and a simple calculation. Lets say it measures .056". Take the radius squared, .028 x .028 = .000784. Multiply by 15% or .000784 x 1.15 = .0009016. The square root of .0009016 is .030*** for the new radius. .030 x 2 = .060" for the new jet diameter. Pi is a constant for area so it doesn't need to be used for figuring out a percentage increase.
Lead Driver
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,020
Likes: 132
From: Maryville
I put it in my 99 E-350 and brought some home to put in my 78 F-150, the carb on the truck needs some adjustment, the fload is set wrong, stupid Holley has to be adjusted on the vehicle and running.
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,003
Likes: 2
From: chicago burbs
ford_250, same as above. high comp pistons and an alcohol safe fuel system including carb, fuel pump, tank, tank grommets, filler cap, lines and any other seal/rubber that gets fuel or vapor. not a small conversion. best bet is to just mix a little with pump gas for a little more octane. they priced E85 higher than i thought and what i've seen posted on websites by me, $2.38 a gallon.
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,270
Likes: 5
From: Delaware
According to Cambridge Research Associates (CERA), Americans burned 130 billion gallons of gasoline in 2003.
"Total Gallons -- The average American driver buys 690 gallons of gasoline a year. U.S. drivers purchased a total of 130 billion gallons last year."
If we all switch to E85 and get the same mileage as with gasoline we will need to produce 110.5 billion gallons of ethanol.
Now if someone can tell me how many bushels of corn it takes to produce a gallon of ethanol, I will be able to calculate how many additional acres we need to have planted to produce that amount of ethanol.
It was mentioned that an acre will produce as much as 250 bushels of corn, but that is probably not a typical acre. Many of the poorest acres are in the land bank, so if we have to plant all available farmland, then the average yeild might be considerably less than 250 bushels/acre.
"Total Gallons -- The average American driver buys 690 gallons of gasoline a year. U.S. drivers purchased a total of 130 billion gallons last year."
If we all switch to E85 and get the same mileage as with gasoline we will need to produce 110.5 billion gallons of ethanol.
Now if someone can tell me how many bushels of corn it takes to produce a gallon of ethanol, I will be able to calculate how many additional acres we need to have planted to produce that amount of ethanol.
It was mentioned that an acre will produce as much as 250 bushels of corn, but that is probably not a typical acre. Many of the poorest acres are in the land bank, so if we have to plant all available farmland, then the average yeild might be considerably less than 250 bushels/acre.
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,270
Likes: 5
From: Delaware
Thanks Denny. It's a lot of fun also.
It appears that you can get about 3 gallons Ethanol from a bushel of corn. We produced 3.4 billion gallons of Ethanol in 2004. Since we need 110.5 billion gallons, that means 107.1 billion gallons is still needed. So we need 35.7 billion bushels of corn to produce enough Ethanol. Now we just have to plant 178.5 million acres in addition to the acreage that is already planted for food and the small amount of Ethanol that is currently used.
Here is a link that supplies a lot of information. Keep in mind that this study was produced by a group that is promoting Ethanol as a fuel. Also they are talking about the economic effects of 10% Ethanol, not 85%. Some of the assumptions may not apply to an 8.5 fold increase in Ethanol production.
http://www.ethanol.org/pdfs/consumer_impacts.pdf
It appears that you can get about 3 gallons Ethanol from a bushel of corn. We produced 3.4 billion gallons of Ethanol in 2004. Since we need 110.5 billion gallons, that means 107.1 billion gallons is still needed. So we need 35.7 billion bushels of corn to produce enough Ethanol. Now we just have to plant 178.5 million acres in addition to the acreage that is already planted for food and the small amount of Ethanol that is currently used.
Here is a link that supplies a lot of information. Keep in mind that this study was produced by a group that is promoting Ethanol as a fuel. Also they are talking about the economic effects of 10% Ethanol, not 85%. Some of the assumptions may not apply to an 8.5 fold increase in Ethanol production.
http://www.ethanol.org/pdfs/consumer_impacts.pdf